More Argie Bargie
Discussion
Elroy Blue said:
Considering the populatio of teh Falklands wish to remain British, what you propose is handing the islands to Argentina (a country that was formed after the Falklands) against the will of the people. What would you call that?
That's probably the crux that highlights it has nothing to do with Empire. If the locals wanted the be part of another country no one here would give any thought of stopping them. It would be a handshake a nice farewell ceremony and off they go with us thinking they were a bunch of pussies best rid of. But my understanding from the 2 islanders I have met is that they are very British and proud to be British and if this is correct and if they wish to remain British then they must be protect no differently from a wino in a Glaswegian tenement or a Cornish befit pervert.
I don't think the concept of Empire crosses the minds of any normal people, just oddballs. It's a matter of principal to defend ones neighbours and compatriots.
Oakey said:
ViperPict said:
And I will never be proud of anything that came out of the British Empire. How can you be proud of subjugation FFS?!
Yet you drive a Dodge ViperViperPict said:
s2art said:
ViperPict said:
And I will never be proud of anything that came out of the British Empire. How can you be proud of subjugation FFS?!
Staggeringly stupid. Guess what? The Zulus and the Matabele and the Sikhs and most other societies of what is now the Third World all believed in the right of conquest and many had their own empires before the Europeans came along. I don't see you criticising them. Or even the French or Spanish or Portuguese or Russian empires.
BruceV8 said:
ViperPict said:
s2art said:
ViperPict said:
And I will never be proud of anything that came out of the British Empire. How can you be proud of subjugation FFS?!
Staggeringly stupid. Guess what? The Zulus and the Matabele and the Sikhs and most other societies of what is now the Third World all believed in the right of conquest and many had their own empires before the Europeans came along. I don't see you criticising them. Or even the French or Spanish or Portuguese or Russian empires.
The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
Saddle bum said:
ViperPict said:
And I will never be proud of anything that came out of the British Empire. How can you be proud of subjugation FFS?!
The World was a whole lot better place when our school atlases were mostly coloured pink.
Why did the sun never set on the British Empire?
Because God didn't trust the English in the dark.
ViperPict said:
The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
Most Empires possibly, the British Empire is a glorious exception. Why do you think we are still liked and have good relations with the ex-colonies? (including the USA)ViperPict said:
You see, I only really criticised empireism generally. And all empireism has ended (and will end) badly. You've just got a chip on your shoulder to end up thinking that I was singling out the British Empire in particular.
The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
That is correct, but the British Empire left some core values that many countries have kept at the core to build a florishing and succesfull society. So empireism has not been too bad in the long term. Even if it unites clans against it. Atleast it unites clans.The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
Trommel said:
ViperPict said:
my view would be to leave stuff alone that's not yours...
So you'll be getting out of Scotland and heading straight back to Ireland/Spain/Scythia/Scandinavia/wherever once your origins are confirmed?But I'm sure you actually do realise that it's a different issue you've raised?
Zaxxon said:
ViperPict said:
You see, I only really criticised empireism generally. And all empireism has ended (and will end) badly. You've just got a chip on your shoulder to end up thinking that I was singling out the British Empire in particular.
The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
That is correct, but the British Empire left some core values that many countries have kept at the core to build a florishing and succesfull society. So empireism has not been too bad in the long term. Even if it unites clans against it. Atleast it unites clans.The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
ViperPict said:
You see, I only really criticised empireism generally. And all empireism has ended (and will end) badly.
By that logic you can say that any polity ends badly. Just pick your moment of ending. Besides, your point doesn't really hold up. As far as ends of Empires go, the British one was particularly ordered and peaceful - in the main - and is one of the few instances of an empire giving up its colonies voluntarily.ViperPict said:
You've just got a chip on your shoulder to end up thinking that I was singling out the British Empire in particular.
I've got a chip on my shoulder! In fairness to you you didn't say the British empire specifically and I thought that's what you meant. I thought that because of your posting history and because this thread is about a British dependancy. ViperPict said:
The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
That's where we'll have to disagree.Edited by BruceV8 on Tuesday 27th December 23:47
s2art said:
ViperPict said:
The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
Most Empires possibly, the British Empire is a glorious exception. Why do you think we are still liked and have good relations with the ex-colonies? (including the USA)BruceV8 said:
You see, I only really criticised empireism generally. And all empireism has ended (and will end) badlyBy that logic you can say that any polity ends badly. Just pick your moment of ending. Besides, your point doesn't really hold up. As far as ends of Empires go, the British one was particularly ordered and peaceful - in the main - and is one of the few instances of an empire giving up its colonies voluntarily.
I've got a chip on my shoulder! In fairness to you you didn't say the British empire specifically and I thought that's what you meant. I thought that because of your posting history and because this thread is about a British dependancy.
I have never written anything in seriousness that was anti-English/British whatever. The worst you can say is that I'm feverishly pro-Scottish! Some people just regard that as implicitly being anti-English (which it absolutely is not!), hence the chip-on-the-shoulder comment.ViperPict said:
You've just got a chip on your shoulder to end up thinking that I was singling out the British Empire in particular.
I've got a chip on my shoulder! In fairness to you you didn't say the British empire specifically and I thought that's what you meant. I thought that because of your posting history and because this thread is about a British dependancy. ViperPict said:
The modern morality issue is irrelevant. The truth is that empireism has a net effect that is negative, regardless of how historically justified it was.
That's where we'll have to disagree.It's Imperialism, by the way.
As I see it, the world as a whole have benefited from the British Empire. India would not be the world's largest democracy without us, and that's something to be proud of. We also defeated the Germans (twice) and so saved the world from eating pickled cabbage for breakfast. We also started the USA, so without the British Empire there would be no Dodge Viper.
I'm not for a moment saying it's all positive, but we did do a lot of good stuff, especially in comparison to the French and Spanish.
As I see it, the world as a whole have benefited from the British Empire. India would not be the world's largest democracy without us, and that's something to be proud of. We also defeated the Germans (twice) and so saved the world from eating pickled cabbage for breakfast. We also started the USA, so without the British Empire there would be no Dodge Viper.
I'm not for a moment saying it's all positive, but we did do a lot of good stuff, especially in comparison to the French and Spanish.
ViperPict said:
I have never written anything in seriousness that was anti-English/British whatever. The worst you can say is that I'm feverishly pro-Scottish! Some people just regard that as implicitly being anti-English (which it absolutely is not!), hence the chip-on-the-shoulder comment.
Wel when it comes to the Empire, all countries were a part, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Together very strong, disbanded weaker.The Empire created much and improved areas that would forever remain 3rd world. Now some of those countries are strong, India is on the verge of becoming a superpower.
The Empire took a lot but in return gave something that most modern countries base their core fundementles upon.
Not really all bad.
Zaxxon said:
ViperPict said:
I have never written anything in seriousness that was anti-English/British whatever. The worst you can say is that I'm feverishly pro-Scottish! Some people just regard that as implicitly being anti-English (which it absolutely is not!), hence the chip-on-the-shoulder comment.
Wel when it comes to the Empire, all countries were a part, England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Together very strong, disbanded weaker.The Empire created much and improved areas that would forever remain 3rd world. Now some of those countries are strong, India is on the verge of becoming a superpower.
The Empire took a lot but in return gave something that most modern countries base their core fundementles upon.
Not really all bad.
The basic problem is superimposing beliefs/ culture/ practices onto a country that had it's own beliefs/ culture/ practices that had evolved over a long time and based on the specific issues relevant to that country. The 'mummy knows best' approach NEVER works.
One example - applying Eurpoean land management practices to '3rd world' countries was, almost without exception, a complete environmental disaster. SO many examples of that.
I stand by my thesis that the net effect of empireism is negative.
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