Now Gordon wants your organs

[meandmeandme]

"now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle"???

[scorp]

meandmeandme said:

"now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle"???

Would you like me to use smaller words so you understand ?

go back and read the several posts i've made so you might get a better understanding rather than cherry picking an out-of-context quote.

[meandmeandme]

scorp said:

meandmeandme said:

"now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle"???

Would you like me to use smaller words so you understand ?

go back and read the several posts i've made so you might get a better understanding rather than cherry picking an out-of-context quote.

Touchy touchy! I merely wanted you to expand because i did not understand what you meant by it. Don't patronise me "Would you like me to use smaller words so you understand"

[Smart roadster]

ONE FINAL TIME YOU WILL NOT HAVE YOUR HAND FORCED, THE PROPOSAL WAS TURNED DOWN.

Sorry to shout but the hard of thinking seem to have missed this small but important point.

[scorp]

meandmeandme said:

Touchy touchy! I merely wanted you to expand because i did not understand what you meant by it.

My problem is with presumed-consent, i cannot think of anything were presumed consent exists, by presuming my consent to something and adding an option to opt-out is taking liberties. I find it a little worrying a number on here seem quite happy and oblivious to it, maybe i'm a little sensitive when it comes to freedoms and liberties and having them slowly taken away from backward thinking tosspots in govt. Actually the more i think of it, the more extreme my opinion is moving, and i'd rather it didn't, i'd rather the status-quo, we're i would have been happy to give consent.

Smart roadster said:

ONE FINAL TIME YOU WILL NOT HAVE YOUR HAND FORCED, THE PROPOSAL WAS TURNED DOWN.

Sorry to shout but the hard of thinking seem to have missed this small but important point.

Good.

Edited by scorp on Wednesday 19th November 10:36

[meandmeandme]

scorp said:

meandmeandme said:

Touchy touchy! I merely wanted you to expand because i did not understand what you meant by it.

My problem is with presumed-consent, i cannot think of anything were presumed consent exists, by presuming my consent to something and adding an option to opt-out is taking liberties. I find it a little worrying a number on here seem quite happy and oblivious to it, maybe i'm a little sensitive when it comes to freedoms and liberties and having them slowly taken away from my backward thinking tosspots in govt.

I can understand that, and presume it may be one of the reasons this whole inititative has not been implemented. I do however have a strong belief in that people should donate their organs i even asked my parents what they wanted me to do with their organs if something happened to them...maybe a little insensitive i know! :P I think this scheme is a good idea...but then again that probably comes with my profession.

[dxg]

The whole problem with this policy - ignoring its ethical issues and focusing on the entirely practical ones - is that the likelihood of an organ being harvested is entirely dependent on the "set up" of the location in which you happen to die rather than whether or not you are a registered donor.

As was pointed out by a transplant surgeon on Radio 4 last week, even if this policy does make it through, transplant numbers will not rise simply because in the majority of locations, there is no NHS infrastructure to harvest organs before they become non-viable.

[grumbledoak]

NEAKY said:

OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself

There is no need to opt out. We have a well functioning opt in system that saves thousands of lives every year. Lack of donors is not even a the biggest problem right now, and a brief campaign would increase those numbers.

Presumed consent is abhorrent.

[meandmeandme]

In the majority of locations? Really? I work in a hospital which i wouldn't exactly call new or anything special but we still bring up the subject of organ donation with relatives of patients when needed. I'm really surprised by that!

[NEAKY]

grumbledoak said:

NEAKY said:

OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself

There is no need to opt out. We have a well functioning opt in system that saves thousands of lives every year. Lack of donors is not even a the biggest problem right now, and a brief campaign would increase those numbers.

Presumed consent is abhorrent.

A lot of people don't have strong feelings on donating their organs but would have no problem in doing so , but most of these people have not signed up to the donor register or carry a donor card so in their cases presumed consent would work.
If you really don't want to donate and feel strongly about this then surely you would spend the few minutes it would take to opt yourself out.
they have tried campaigns but although it raises the number of people adding themselves to the register it still isn't enough.
I have seen several small children die while waiting on the list for a life saving transplant so the "well functioning system" isn't working well enough.

[NEAKY]

scorp said:

NEAKY said:

OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself

Quite sad really, given some spare time and a small amount of inclination i would be happy to give blood or whatever, now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle, nice one Gordon.

Edited by scorp on Wednesday 19th November 10:15

It takes 5 minutes to sign up to the donor register and half an hour 3 times a year to give blood , so your spare time argument is flawed.
If more people actually bothered to do the above then the presumed consent thing would not be an issue !!

[NEAKY]

mark69sheer said:

NEAKY said:

mark69sheer said:

Neaky I don't think your view is helping.
The major sticking point the research came up with was that people who carried donor cards did so because they got satisfaction out of the idea of doing something good off their own bat.

Your reference to non donor card carriers as 'arrogant' and 'them' or should be dissallowed transplants themselves is hardly going to warm people to being presumed to do anything.

Were you yourself a donor card carrier before your sons were diagnosed?

Yes i had a donor card and gave blood !
Tell me why you should be allowed to get a donor organ if you aren't willing to donate yourself , hardly seems fair does it ?
Again the point is if you don't want to donate you can OPT OUT its remarkably simple.
My view is one of someone who has been through the transplant system which i would say is very relevant don't you !!

I agree your view is very relevant and I should be allowed a transplant because that is how the system currently operates. If the rules are changed then perhaps non opting in donors will be dissallowed transplants but what of sick people who's organs are not able to be donated.
I can't say any more on the subject my points have been made and I will not discuss further in respect of your close personal experiences. I hope your boys live long happy lives Neaky. All the best for the future.

Cheers matey

[10 Pence Short]

NEAKY said:

scorp said:

NEAKY said:

OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself

Quite sad really, given some spare time and a small amount of inclination i would be happy to give blood or whatever, now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle, nice one Gordon.

Edited by scorp on Wednesday 19th November 10:15

It takes 5 minutes to sign up to the donor register and half an hour 3 times a year to give blood , so your spare time argument is flawed.
If more people actually bothered to do the above then the presumed consent thing would not be an issue !!

Presumed consent is an issue, because I and many others you not think the Government have the right to presume.

Whilst donating blood and organs is a valiant and valuable task, if it is presumed that you opt in to this, how many other things will we be opted into.

ID Cards?
DNA Sampling?

Etc etc.

Someone who has had to rely on a Donor is not in the best position to see the bigger picture.

Edited by 10 Pence Short on Wednesday 19th November 12:00

[scorp]

NEAKY said:

It takes 5 minutes to sign up to the donor register and half an hour 3 times a year to give blood , so your spare time argument is flawed.
If more people actually bothered to do the above then the presumed consent thing would not be an issue !!

And i just teleport myself into the hospital do i ? It's a ballache getting to mine, and out of all my priorities (i have 3 kids and a wife) taking a detour to the hospital is low, that was my point.

[staceyb]

scorp said:

NEAKY said:

It takes 5 minutes to sign up to the donor register and half an hour 3 times a year to give blood , so your spare time argument is flawed.
If more people actually bothered to do the above then the presumed consent thing would not be an issue !!

And i just teleport myself into the hospital do i ? It's a ballache getting to mine, and out of all my priorities (i have 3 kids and a wife) taking a detour to the hospital is low, that was my point.

Go to the hospital to give blood? There will probably be somewhere 5 minutes from your house to donate blood.

[NEAKY]

staceyb said:

scorp said:

NEAKY said:

It takes 5 minutes to sign up to the donor register and half an hour 3 times a year to give blood , so your spare time argument is flawed.
If more people actually bothered to do the above then the presumed consent thing would not be an issue !!

And i just teleport myself into the hospital do i ? It's a ballache getting to mine, and out of all my priorities (i have 3 kids and a wife) taking a detour to the hospital is low, that was my point.

Go to the hospital to give blood? There will probably be somewhere 5 minutes from your house to donate blood.

Agreed they have mobile units for this purpose !!

[NEAKY]

10 Pence Short said:

NEAKY said:

scorp said:

NEAKY said:

OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself

Quite sad really, given some spare time and a small amount of inclination i would be happy to give blood or whatever, now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle, nice one Gordon.

Edited by scorp on Wednesday 19th November 10:15

It takes 5 minutes to sign up to the donor register and half an hour 3 times a year to give blood , so your spare time argument is flawed.
If more people actually bothered to do the above then the presumed consent thing would not be an issue !!

Someone who has had to rely on a Donor is not in the best position to see the bigger picture.

Edited by 10 Pence Short on Wednesday 19th November 12:00

That is a very strange thing to say , when you are going to die unless you get a transplant there is no "bigger picture"

[scorp]

NEAKY said:

Agreed they have mobile units for this purpose !!

Not had anyone come round to my house to ask me so i'm not exactly sure we're i would go, but we seem to be moving away from my points here. Again I would be happy to give blood or even give consent to allow my organs to be used after my death, the keyword here being 'give'.

[10 Pence Short]

NEAKY said:

10 Pence Short said:

NEAKY said:

scorp said:

NEAKY said:

OPT OUT if you feel strongly about it , the concept is simplicity itself

Quite sad really, given some spare time and a small amount of inclination i would be happy to give blood or whatever, now it seems i will have my hand forced into refusing out of principle, nice one Gordon.

Edited by scorp on Wednesday 19th November 10:15

It takes 5 minutes to sign up to the donor register and half an hour 3 times a year to give blood , so your spare time argument is flawed.
If more people actually bothered to do the above then the presumed consent thing would not be an issue !!

Someone who has had to rely on a Donor is not in the best position to see the bigger picture.

Edited by 10 Pence Short on Wednesday 19th November 12:00

That is a very strange thing to say , when you are going to die unless you get a transplant there is no "bigger picture"

If you have lived because of a donor, when otherwise you would have died, or worse lost a close one because a donor wasn't found, you are going to do everything and anything to increase the number of donors. The ability to view the subject impartially has been removed.

It is not for the state to tell me I have chosen to donate my own body parts, or that a loved one must donate their body parts, because in my busy life I did not seek out and sign the appropriate opt out.

I am not against donors or giving blood, I am against the state feeling it has the right to decide for me, in this instance.

[Smart roadster]

Neaky

I understand why you are so passionate about this subject but no one has ever had there views changed by being badgered. I sympathize with where you are coming from but your hectoring is going to turn more people off donation than encourage them in.
As the point is currently moot my I suggest that no further meaningful discussion will be had on this thread. Those against will remain against and those for will remain for.
A better use of effort would be to hassle your MP to provide more funding for projects like the one in Bristol featured on the news this morning of the altering of donor organs to not be rejected by the recipient.