North Korea - how serious should we take them?
Discussion
cymtriks said:
Why does China still want or need NK as a regional ally?
Surely China is wealthy enough and big enough to do whatever it wants with or without NK support?
Why would China lose anything if the NK regime failed?
I'm struggling to think of much that NK bring in that China have not already got or could easily get without them.
No man is an island. Everyone needs friends. Etc. etc.Surely China is wealthy enough and big enough to do whatever it wants with or without NK support?
Why would China lose anything if the NK regime failed?
I'm struggling to think of much that NK bring in that China have not already got or could easily get without them.
The Great Standoff is basically the US + Nato + India vs. China + Russia + Iran + North Korea.
If it really wants, North Korea can mobilise 9 million trained and part-trained soldiers in under a week. That is a powerful force you want with you, not neutral or against. For comparison, the UK would struggle to rustle up 200k soldiers in that timeframe.
North Korea is "pure" communism. Which many Chinese respect (rightly or wrongly). They are, in many ways, kindred spirits.
North Korea and China trade a lot of coal and other materials. They have long been economic partners.
China has a huge chunk of the US, India and UK armies camped right on its borders, it feels "surrounded", and needs buffer-countries. North Korea (and Pakistan to some degree) fulfill that role. Imagine if China had a big military base in Dublin with missiles facing London, that would feel uncomfortable for many.
Politically, diplomatically, economically, historically, culturally and militarily, China and North Korea are like two peas in a pod.
I have a feeling this story about the women being stooges in a "TV prank show" is actually what happened. It would explain the LOL shirt and also it seems they had done the same "prank" with water on three other guys.
Sort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
Sort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
Yipper said:
If it really wants, North Korea can mobilise 9 million trained and part-trained soldiers in under a week. That is a powerful force you want with you, not neutral or against. For comparison, the UK would struggle to rustle up 200k soldiers in that timeframe.
North Korea is "pure" communism. Which many Chinese respect (rightly or wrongly). They are, in many ways, kindred spirits.
North Korea and China trade a lot of coal and other materials. They have long been economic partners.
China has a huge chunk of the US, India and UK armies camped right on its borders, it feels "surrounded", and needs buffer-countries. North Korea (and Pakistan to some degree) fulfill that role. Imagine if China had a big military base in Dublin with missiles facing London, that would feel uncomfortable for many.
Politically, diplomatically, economically, historically, culturally and militarily, China and North Korea are like two peas in a pod.
Nail on the head. Good post.North Korea is "pure" communism. Which many Chinese respect (rightly or wrongly). They are, in many ways, kindred spirits.
North Korea and China trade a lot of coal and other materials. They have long been economic partners.
China has a huge chunk of the US, India and UK armies camped right on its borders, it feels "surrounded", and needs buffer-countries. North Korea (and Pakistan to some degree) fulfill that role. Imagine if China had a big military base in Dublin with missiles facing London, that would feel uncomfortable for many.
Politically, diplomatically, economically, historically, culturally and militarily, China and North Korea are like two peas in a pod.
s3fella said:
I have a feeling this story about the women being stooges in a "TV prank show" is actually what happened. It would explain the LOL shirt and also it seems they had done the same "prank" with water on three other guys.
Sort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
Agree - total geniusSort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
I retract my amateur comment from the previous page without reservation
cymtriks said:
Why would China lose anything if the NK regime failed?
kowalski655 said:
They probably dont want millions of starving refugees crossing the border
That's the one.Yipper said:
No man is an island. Everyone needs friends. Etc. etc.
The Great Standoff is basically the US + Nato + India vs. China + Russia + Iran + North Korea.
If it really wants, North Korea can mobilise 9 million trained and part-trained soldiers in under a week. That is a powerful force you want with you, not neutral or against. For comparison, the UK would struggle to rustle up 200k soldiers in that timeframe.
North Korea is "pure" communism. Which many Chinese respect (rightly or wrongly). They are, in many ways, kindred spirits.
North Korea and China trade a lot of coal and other materials. They have long been economic partners.
China has a huge chunk of the US, India and UK armies camped right on its borders, it feels "surrounded", and needs buffer-countries. North Korea (and Pakistan to some degree) fulfill that role. Imagine if China had a big military base in Dublin with missiles facing London, that would feel uncomfortable for many.
Politically, diplomatically, economically, historically, culturally and militarily, China and North Korea are like two peas in a pod.
They could mobilise 9m and a week later they'd be starving and rudderless; commanding and controlling that quantity of troops is not practical and they are incapable of feeding themselves never mind supplying themselves with ammo. What you describe as pure communism is a gimcrack personality cult, China abandoned that dangerous nonsense when Mao shuffled off his perch 40 years ago and is a better and richer place for it. If China was the same they would be ruled by Mao's(the least capable and fattest of) progeny and they would be worshipped as living deities in between murdering each other.The Great Standoff is basically the US + Nato + India vs. China + Russia + Iran + North Korea.
If it really wants, North Korea can mobilise 9 million trained and part-trained soldiers in under a week. That is a powerful force you want with you, not neutral or against. For comparison, the UK would struggle to rustle up 200k soldiers in that timeframe.
North Korea is "pure" communism. Which many Chinese respect (rightly or wrongly). They are, in many ways, kindred spirits.
North Korea and China trade a lot of coal and other materials. They have long been economic partners.
China has a huge chunk of the US, India and UK armies camped right on its borders, it feels "surrounded", and needs buffer-countries. North Korea (and Pakistan to some degree) fulfill that role. Imagine if China had a big military base in Dublin with missiles facing London, that would feel uncomfortable for many.
Politically, diplomatically, economically, historically, culturally and militarily, China and North Korea are like two peas in a pod.
China has no UK or US forces on its borders and there's not much prospect of there being any; if Korea reunified the US forces would be withdrawn.
hidetheelephants said:
cymtriks said:
Why would China lose anything if the NK regime failed?
kowalski655 said:
They probably dont want millions of starving refugees crossing the border
That's the one.Yipper said:
No man is an island. Everyone needs friends. Etc. etc.
The Great Standoff is basically the US + Nato + India vs. China + Russia + Iran + North Korea.
If it really wants, North Korea can mobilise 9 million trained and part-trained soldiers in under a week. That is a powerful force you want with you, not neutral or against. For comparison, the UK would struggle to rustle up 200k soldiers in that timeframe.
North Korea is "pure" communism. Which many Chinese respect (rightly or wrongly). They are, in many ways, kindred spirits.
North Korea and China trade a lot of coal and other materials. They have long been economic partners.
China has a huge chunk of the US, India and UK armies camped right on its borders, it feels "surrounded", and needs buffer-countries. North Korea (and Pakistan to some degree) fulfill that role. Imagine if China had a big military base in Dublin with missiles facing London, that would feel uncomfortable for many.
Politically, diplomatically, economically, historically, culturally and militarily, China and North Korea are like two peas in a pod.
They could mobilise 9m and a week later they'd be starving and rudderless; commanding and controlling that quantity of troops is not practical and they are incapable of feeding themselves never mind supplying themselves with ammo. What you describe as pure communism is a gimcrack personality cult, China abandoned that dangerous nonsense when Mao shuffled off his perch 40 years ago and is a better and richer place for it. If China was the same they would be ruled by Mao's(the least capable and fattest of) progeny and they would be worshipped as living deities in between murdering each other.The Great Standoff is basically the US + Nato + India vs. China + Russia + Iran + North Korea.
If it really wants, North Korea can mobilise 9 million trained and part-trained soldiers in under a week. That is a powerful force you want with you, not neutral or against. For comparison, the UK would struggle to rustle up 200k soldiers in that timeframe.
North Korea is "pure" communism. Which many Chinese respect (rightly or wrongly). They are, in many ways, kindred spirits.
North Korea and China trade a lot of coal and other materials. They have long been economic partners.
China has a huge chunk of the US, India and UK armies camped right on its borders, it feels "surrounded", and needs buffer-countries. North Korea (and Pakistan to some degree) fulfill that role. Imagine if China had a big military base in Dublin with missiles facing London, that would feel uncomfortable for many.
Politically, diplomatically, economically, historically, culturally and militarily, China and North Korea are like two peas in a pod.
China has no UK or US forces on its borders and there's not much prospect of there being any; if Korea reunified the US forces would be withdrawn.
North Korea quite happily feeds its 2m fulltime soldiers and would have no problem finding a bit of extra rice for another 7m. China would happily help to feed them, as would Russia, Iran and possibly Venezuela, Pakistan, Somalia and Libya. Russia easily fed 10m soldiers in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, before modern farming or logistics.
Managing 9m soldiers is little different to managing 90k soldiers. You just split them into more battle groups and head toward or around the enemy. Russia mobilised 10m soldiers to beat the Germans and Japanese in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, when they sent messages by carrier pigeon.
China is a communist country. Run by a communist party. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP). With a communist political system. The local short name for China is Zhongguo, which translates as "Central Nation". Take a trip to China. Millions openly and covertly admire the "pure" communism of ultra-centralised North Korea. The North Koreans are "how China used to be".
The UK has an overseas military base in Nepal. On China's southern border. The US has a military base in Afghanistan. On China's western border. India has military bases on China's western and southern borders. The US has military bases in South Korea as Japan. On China's eastern border. As near as you can possibly get without sparking confrontation, China is almost completely surrounded by Western powers.
Happy to help update further your knowledge base.
Yipper said:
Lol. People have been saying that kinda stuff for ~50 years. Wishful thinking
North Korea quite happily feeds its 2m fulltime soldiers and would have no problem finding a bit of extra rice for another 7m. China would happily help to feed them, as would Russia, Iran and possibly Venezuela, Pakistan, Somalia and Libya. Russia easily fed 10m soldiers in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, before modern farming or logistics.
Managing 9m soldiers is little different to managing 90k soldiers. You just split them into more battle groups and head toward or around the enemy. Russia mobilised 10m soldiers to beat the Germans and Japanese in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, when they sent messages by carrier pigeon.
The difference in difficulty between feeding and watering 2m squaddies in barracks and doing the same when they're running around being shot at is almost as big as the difference between feeding 2m and 9m. The NKs can't do it; the US would have difficulty doing it with full mobilisation and they have the best funded military in the world. The little logistical infrastructure NK has would last about 5 minutes before Uncle Sam bombed it out of existence; a week later the 9m NK squaddies start eating each other or starving because their ration of tinned dog hasn't arrived. An army doing its C3I via carrier pigeon isn't an army, it's 9m meatsacks that need to be fed.North Korea quite happily feeds its 2m fulltime soldiers and would have no problem finding a bit of extra rice for another 7m. China would happily help to feed them, as would Russia, Iran and possibly Venezuela, Pakistan, Somalia and Libya. Russia easily fed 10m soldiers in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, before modern farming or logistics.
Managing 9m soldiers is little different to managing 90k soldiers. You just split them into more battle groups and head toward or around the enemy. Russia mobilised 10m soldiers to beat the Germans and Japanese in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, when they sent messages by carrier pigeon.
Yipper said:
China is a communist country. Run by a communist party. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP). With a communist political system. The local short name for China is Zhongguo, which translates as "Central Nation". Take a trip to China. Millions openly and covertly admire the "pure" communism of ultra-centralised North Korea. The North Koreans are "how China used to be".
That's my point, misguided nostalgia aside China has been run by a committee since Deng took over the reins; no demagogues and personality cults tend to wind up being crushed by one means or another.Yipper said:
The UK has an overseas military base in Nepal. On China's southern border. The US has a military base in Afghanistan. On China's western border. India has military bases on China's western and southern borders. The US has military bases in South Korea as Japan. On China's eastern border. As near as you can possibly get without sparking confrontation, China is almost completely surrounded by Western powers.
Happy to help update further your knowledge base.
If BGN has a head count of more than 100 I'll eat my hat; it's a grandiosely titled recruiting office for the Gurkhas. There are fewer than 10,000 septics in Afghanistan and nearest US garrison(subject to the veracity of my google-fu) to the Chinese border is ~500km away in Jalalabad. India has bases near their shared border because the Chinese had a bad habit of helping themselves to things that didn't belong to them, like Tibet. My bold; hysterical tabloid nonsense.Happy to help update further your knowledge base.
Greenpeace is going to like this.
China will suspend all imports of coal from North Korea starting Feb. 19, the country's commerce ministry said in a notice posted on its website on Saturday, as part of its efforts to implement United Nations sanctions against the country.
The Ministry of Commerce said in a short statement that the ban would be effective until Dec. 31.
China will suspend all imports of coal from North Korea starting Feb. 19, the country's commerce ministry said in a notice posted on its website on Saturday, as part of its efforts to implement United Nations sanctions against the country.
The Ministry of Commerce said in a short statement that the ban would be effective until Dec. 31.
AreOut said:
Greenpeace is going to like this.
China will suspend all imports of coal from North Korea starting Feb. 19, the country's commerce ministry said in a notice posted on its website on Saturday, as part of its efforts to implement United Nations sanctions against the country.
The Ministry of Commerce said in a short statement that the ban would be effective until Dec. 31.
A pathetic gesture for the consumption of the west. It just means China will burn its own coal, and NK will have more for itself.China will suspend all imports of coal from North Korea starting Feb. 19, the country's commerce ministry said in a notice posted on its website on Saturday, as part of its efforts to implement United Nations sanctions against the country.
The Ministry of Commerce said in a short statement that the ban would be effective until Dec. 31.
They'll still carry on propping him up.
AreOut said:
Greenpeace is going to like this.
China will suspend all imports of coal from North Korea starting Feb. 19, the country's commerce ministry said in a notice posted on its website on Saturday, as part of its efforts to implement United Nations sanctions against the country.
The Ministry of Commerce said in a short statement that the ban would be effective until Dec. 31.
China will suspend all imports of coal from North Korea starting Feb. 19, the country's commerce ministry said in a notice posted on its website on Saturday, as part of its efforts to implement United Nations sanctions against the country.
The Ministry of Commerce said in a short statement that the ban would be effective until Dec. 31.
hidetheelephants said:
Yipper said:
Lol. People have been saying that kinda stuff for ~50 years. Wishful thinking
North Korea quite happily feeds its 2m fulltime soldiers and would have no problem finding a bit of extra rice for another 7m. China would happily help to feed them, as would Russia, Iran and possibly Venezuela, Pakistan, Somalia and Libya. Russia easily fed 10m soldiers in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, before modern farming or logistics.
Managing 9m soldiers is little different to managing 90k soldiers. You just split them into more battle groups and head toward or around the enemy. Russia mobilised 10m soldiers to beat the Germans and Japanese in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, when they sent messages by carrier pigeon.
The difference in difficulty between feeding and watering 2m squaddies in barracks and doing the same when they're running around being shot at is almost as big as the difference between feeding 2m and 9m. The NKs can't do it; the US would have difficulty doing it with full mobilisation and they have the best funded military in the world. The little logistical infrastructure NK has would last about 5 minutes before Uncle Sam bombed it out of existence; a week later the 9m NK squaddies start eating each other or starving because their ration of tinned dog hasn't arrived. An army doing its C3I via carrier pigeon isn't an army, it's 9m meatsacks that need to be fed.North Korea quite happily feeds its 2m fulltime soldiers and would have no problem finding a bit of extra rice for another 7m. China would happily help to feed them, as would Russia, Iran and possibly Venezuela, Pakistan, Somalia and Libya. Russia easily fed 10m soldiers in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, before modern farming or logistics.
Managing 9m soldiers is little different to managing 90k soldiers. You just split them into more battle groups and head toward or around the enemy. Russia mobilised 10m soldiers to beat the Germans and Japanese in WW2 -- and that was 75 years ago, when they sent messages by carrier pigeon.
Yipper said:
China is a communist country. Run by a communist party. The Chinese Communist Party (CCP). With a communist political system. The local short name for China is Zhongguo, which translates as "Central Nation". Take a trip to China. Millions openly and covertly admire the "pure" communism of ultra-centralised North Korea. The North Koreans are "how China used to be".
That's my point, misguided nostalgia aside China has been run by a committee since Deng took over the reins; no demagogues and personality cults tend to wind up being crushed by one means or another.Yipper said:
The UK has an overseas military base in Nepal. On China's southern border. The US has a military base in Afghanistan. On China's western border. India has military bases on China's western and southern borders. The US has military bases in South Korea as Japan. On China's eastern border. As near as you can possibly get without sparking confrontation, China is almost completely surrounded by Western powers.
Happy to help update further your knowledge base.
If BGN has a head count of more than 100 I'll eat my hat; it's a grandiosely titled recruiting office for the Gurkhas. There are fewer than 10,000 septics in Afghanistan and nearest US garrison(subject to the veracity of my google-fu) to the Chinese border is ~500km away in Jalalabad. India has bases near their shared border because the Chinese had a bad habit of helping themselves to things that didn't belong to them, like Tibet. My bold; hysterical tabloid nonsense.Happy to help update further your knowledge base.
As above, China is a communist country. North Korea is an ultra-communist country and millions of Chinese love them for it.
There are half-a-million US, UK and India soldiers within 6hrs of China. There are zero China soldiers within 6hrs of the US. China is, and feels, surrounded.
s3fella said:
I have a feeling this story about the women being stooges in a "TV prank show" is actually what happened. It would explain the LOL shirt and also it seems they had done the same "prank" with water on three other guys.
Sort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
Hate to say it, but it does look kinda genius. Trick two naive stooges to do the act for you.Sort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
Video footage of the event emerged yesterday. A woman rushes up behind him and smears something on his face. All over in <3secs. He seems normal for the first several minutes, but then dies 5-30mins later. Some nasty, slow-acting poison. Horrific way to go.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/20/nort...
Yipper said:
s3fella said:
I have a feeling this story about the women being stooges in a "TV prank show" is actually what happened. It would explain the LOL shirt and also it seems they had done the same "prank" with water on three other guys.
Sort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
Hate to say it, but it does look kinda genius. Trick two naive stooges to do the act for you.Sort of genius if the hit squad used innocent stooges like this. And if it was done by Kim Jong Il, it's actually pretty clever (if somewhat evil).
Video footage of the event emerged yesterday. A woman rushes up behind him and smears something on his face. All over in <3secs. He seems normal for the first several minutes, but then dies 5-30mins later. Some nasty, slow-acting poison. Horrific way to go.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/20/nort...
Yipper said:
As above, North Korea happily fed 2m soldiers in the Korean War 70 years ago. Russia fed 10m soldiers in WW2 75 years ago. It's been done before and can be done again for 9m. Typical Western or foreigner arrogance to think little North Korea could not pull it off.
No they didn't; if Russia fielded more than a couple of million in front line operations at any one time I'd be surprised, as the red army headcount peaked at about 6.5m in 1945. I imagine the russians had as much trouble keeping them fed as Eisenhower did the allies in western europe, tying up upwards of 5 divisions of men solely driving trucks and operating trains, and all with the benefit of virtual air supremacy. North Korea did not happily feed anyone, the Chinese held their hand and supplied the muscle. It's hard to feed squaddies in the field when any logistical unit larger than a bicycle gets blown to perdition as soon as it moves; any NK army in the field will starve to death because of air interdiction of their logistics.
Yipper said:
As above, China is a communist country. North Korea is an ultra-communist country and millions of Chinese love them for it.
There are half-a-million US, UK and India soldiers within 6hrs of China. There are zero China soldiers within 6hrs of the US. China is, and feels, surrounded.
They aren't but if they insist on manifesting a persecution complex they're going to have to deal with it themselves. Millions of Chinese love Hello Kitty, but aren't about to lay down their lives for her.There are half-a-million US, UK and India soldiers within 6hrs of China. There are zero China soldiers within 6hrs of the US. China is, and feels, surrounded.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff