The 'No to the EU' campaign

[Mothersruin]

I've worked out that I now do not have to employ any brain cells to arrive at a political point of view.

I let Emma Thompson and Dianne Abbott do all the work for me.

If they think it's a great idea, it's the worst thing to do.
If they think it's abhorrent, it's the best thing to do.

Therefore, we have to leave the EU immediately.

[Mr Whippy]

IainT said:

FiF said:

Quite, I came out as Labour '72, just like the poster earlier.

I came out as:
Economic Left/Right: -1.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.38

Looking at this in comparison with the 2015 election I have to wonder why I voted Conservative:



Either I grossly misunderstood their policies or that test is bks.

I think the problem with this is it just gives people a differentiator that doesn't really matter.

Left/right, libertarianism and authoritarianism are just ways to divide and conquer people who can't see where societies real problems stem from.

They like you to stick a pin in the chart and then blame others who don't align with fundamental beliefs, for the problems in their lives and the world.


But the reality is that it's just a distraction. I've never felt better or worse off at any other time than when my rulers simply act in their own interests and the interests of their crony mates.

That is what most of this crap is, just a distraction to stop people realising all their problems would go away if all these showers of ste were sacked off and real representatives of society as a whole took their place.


No matter who you vote for and where they land on that chart, your life won't really change. You'll still mostly be shat on by political powers more interested in representing themselves and their mates than you.

[Harry H]

I've said this before but there's not a hope in hell of getting an out vote.

Leaving the EU is a big change full of fear, uncertainty and doubt. Most of the UK population haven't got the balls for it.

If UK leaves the EU then Scotland want to go for another independence vote where the majority of Scots want to stay in the EU. So that'll mean break up of the UK. Again the UK population haven't got the balls for it.

There is currently no big heavyweight politician coming in out in favour of the out campaign. Again they haven't got the balls for it.

Just wait until they start to up the anti on the whole immigrant thing. All those immigrants that are eligible to vote are hardly going to go for "out" are they ?

We're British and we muddle along making the best of a bad situation. That's what we're good at. So we'll shrug our shoulders and carry on in the EU.

The EU know we haven't got what it takes to leave. Let's face it our leader and chief negotiator is David Cameron. He's not going to go down in history as a hard nut is he?

[v8250]

alfie2244 said:

I am someone that supported the referendum party 20 years ago ( Mr Aspinall was a great character to meet in the flesh)

Federal EU superstate.......doomed I tell you.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSXdE8M-9Y4

The late, great and admirable Sir James Goldsmith. The OUT campaign urgently needs someone of his strength of character. He was terminally ill during his campaign and despite knowing he had not long to live he campaigned like an absolute war horse for the betterment of the UK. I find it incredulous that our politicians have continued to bdize our country for the 20 years that have passed since the Referendum Party; this is why the Brexit referendum is of such great importance. This for better watching and understanding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3wdaav0ut8

As an aside, I wish Zac Goldsmith the very best of success in securing the mayoral election...he will be a great asset to Europe's greatest city.

Slightly off topic, have just re-read John Pearson's book, The Gamblers. Aspinall and Goldsmith were of there time. Aspinall really was an independent thinker, perhaps not to everyone's liking...but he had a great view of life. Can recommend this book to all.

Edited by v8250 on Wednesday 17th February 11:51

[FredClogs]

IainT said:

We could both have been completely duped by spin from our political 'elite' though... None of the main parties really represent me on the authoritarian scale - that I'm aware of, it's the left-right split that I struggle with on the graph.

Ok, so post Thatcher most people's basic understanding of left/right economic principles is that on the left you have a huge state machine which acts as employer, provider and nanny to the people and on the far right you have a small state machine which gives the bare minimum of aid to the people but enables enterprise and encourages personal responsibility.

Now when framed like that most people, because of the events of the 20th century and communism and the frankly appalling leadership of states over the last 200 years and the apparent success of the American model, would say they were somewhat to the right of centre, somewhere between New Labour and the current conservatives.

But when you actually start to present what that mean practically by questioning peoples base emotive responses to simple questions such as...

Do you believe that educational opportunities should be equal for all regardless of ability to pay
Do you believe healthcare outcomes should be better for the wealthy?
Do you believe that government should help fund job opportunities in deprived areas
Do you believe that jails should be privately run to create profit
Do you believe that work place subsidies should help disabled people get into employment


All of a sudden people aren't as right wing economically as they think they are, all of a sudden the importance of the state and the role of government in creating equality of opportunity and help in lifting people out of poor birth happenstance becomes important.

Most people believe in the ideals of the center left, they just don't trust the management of their tax money to government which is the basic paradox at the centre of modern politics.

[Mr Whippy]

Harry H said:

Most of the UK population haven't got the balls for it.

Sheeps.

Give us a load of your money so we can sit around living lavish lifestyles at your expense... Baaa... ok... baaa.

Sounds about right.

[Northern Munkee]

Harry H said:

I've said this before but there's not a hope in hell of getting an out vote.

Leaving the EU is a big change full of fear, uncertainty and doubt. Most of the UK population haven't got the balls for it.

If UK leaves the EU then Scotland want to go for another independence vote where the majority of Scots want to stay in the EU. So that'll mean break up of the UK. Again the UK population haven't got the balls for it.

There is currently no big heavyweight politician coming in out in favour of the out campaign. Again they haven't got the balls for it.

Just wait until they start to up the anti on the whole immigrant thing. All those immigrants that are eligible to vote are hardly going to go for "out" are they ?

We're British and we muddle along making the best of a bad situation. That's what we're good at. So we'll shrug our shoulders and carry on in the EU.

The EU know we haven't got what it takes to leave. Let's face it our leader and chief negotiator is David Cameron. He's not going to go down in history as a hard nut is he?

Not with that kind of defeatist talk. Your talk is programming you've been given by the leftie libtards. This referenda is being driven from the bottom up, not top down, the only reason we've a referenda at all is public opinion is ahead of the politicians.

Show some backbone!

[alfie2244]

v8250 said:

Slightly off topic, have just re-read John Pearson's book, The Gamblers. Aspinall and Goldsmith were of there time. Aspinall really was an independent thinker, perhaps not to everyone's liking...but he had a great view of life. Can recommend this book to all.

Edited by v8250 on Wednesday 17th February 11:51

Is Lord Lucan in it?

[Harry H]

Northern Munkee said:

Not with that kind of defeatist talk. Your talk is programming you've been given by the leftie libtards. This referenda is being driven from the bottom up, not top down, the only reason we've a referenda at all is public opinion is ahead of the politicians.

Show some backbone!

I wish. We're talking about the public that are sway'd by arguments like "It'll be harder to go to Spain on our holidays" and "Who'll serve us in the coffee bars with out all the Polish" Suff that'll affect their everyday immediate lives.

Do you really think they are capable of looking at the big long term picture of our ability to trade freely with the rest of the world and govern ourselves without significant interference from an unelected corrupt organisation that is the EU.

Most of them will make the decision based on. Is there a chance that I may be inconvenienced slightly in the immediate future by leaving ? If yes then vote to stay.

[handpaper]

FredClogs said:

IainT said:

We could both have been completely duped by spin from our political 'elite' though... None of the main parties really represent me on the authoritarian scale - that I'm aware of, it's the left-right split that I struggle with on the graph.

Ok, so post Thatcher most people's basic understanding of left/right economic principles is that on the left you have a huge state machine which acts as employer, provider and nanny to the people and on the far right you have a small state machine which gives the bare minimum of aid to the people but enables enterprise and encourages personal responsibility.

Now when framed like that most people, because of the events of the 20th century and communism and the frankly appalling leadership of states over the last 200 years and the apparent success of the American model, would say they were somewhat to the right of centre, somewhere between New Labour and the current conservatives.

But when you actually start to present what that mean practically by questioning peoples base emotive responses to simple questions such as...

Do you believe that educational opportunities should be equal for all regardless of ability to pay
Do you believe healthcare outcomes should be better for the wealthy?
Do you believe that government should help fund job opportunities in deprived areas
Do you believe that jails should be privately run to create profit
Do you believe that work place subsidies should help disabled people get into employment


All of a sudden people aren't as right wing economically as they think they are, all of a sudden the importance of the state and the role of government in creating equality of opportunity and help in lifting people out of poor birth happenstance becomes important.

Most people believe in the ideals of the center left, they just don't trust the management of their tax money to government which is the basic paradox at the centre of modern politics.

Holy crap, did I just read something from FredClogs that I agree with?
I'm going for a lie down...

[alfie2244]

Will all change when Boris leads the OUT campaign

[fido]

FredClogs said:

Do you believe that educational opportunities should be equal for all regardless of ability to pay
Do you believe healthcare outcomes should be better for the wealthy?
Do you believe that government should help fund job opportunities in deprived areas
Do you believe that jails should be privately run to create profit
Do you believe that work place subsidies should help disabled people get into employment

Perhaps, but if you asked people the question:- "Do you accept that life is not fair sometimes?" they would most likely agree as well. One of the failures of New Labour (and they had 13 years to deal with it) was to improve to improve equality - they actually made it worse. Also disagree with your interpretation of Thatcherism - it's not solely about small state but making people responsible for themselves. Or - if the State does everything for you, where is the motivation for You to better yourself?

[confused_buyer]

Northern Munkee said:

Not with that kind of defeatist talk. Your talk is programming you've been given by the leftie libtards. This referenda is being driven from the bottom up, not top down, the only reason we've a referenda at all is public opinion is ahead of the politicians.

Show some backbone!

The reality is that few, really, care about EU membership one way or another. They might have a bit of an opinion but if they think remotely their mortgage might go up 0.00056% if they vote leave, their ISA might be worth 0.00876% less or, even if they are an Express reader, their house might go up 0.000012% less than it would......they'll vote to "remain" and then moan about the EU for the rest of their lives.

[v8250]

Harry H said:

I've said this before but there's not a hope in hell of getting an out vote.

Leaving the EU is a big change full of fear, uncertainty and doubt. Most of the UK population haven't got the balls for it.

If UK leaves the EU then Scotland want to go for another independence vote where the majority of Scots want to stay in the EU. So that'll mean break up of the UK. Again the UK population haven't got the balls for it.

There is currently no big heavyweight politician coming in out in favour of the out campaign. Again they haven't got the balls for it.

Just wait until they start to up the anti on the whole immigrant thing. All those immigrants that are eligible to vote are hardly going to go for "out" are they ?

We're British and we muddle along making the best of a bad situation. That's what we're good at. So we'll shrug our shoulders and carry on in the EU.

The EU know we haven't got what it takes to leave. Let's face it our leader and chief negotiator is David Cameron. He's not going to go down in history as a hard nut is he?

Harry, in the nicest way, MTFU old bean. Leaving the EU has no fear whatsoever. We are not some third world nation, we are an immensely strong and economically vital country. The UK electorate absolutely have the balls to fight for a conclusive Brexit...but the naysayers, the doubters, need to be silenced as they simply do not understand the importance of UK independence.

The Scotland/Wales issue is a non-starter and must not allow people's view on the Brexit Referendum. Once we Brexit, it matters not one iota should they want independence in order to remain within the EU. To put it bluntly, neither Scotland nor Wales have the economic financial strength to go it alone. If they choose to remain/rejoin the EU then let them. And more fool to those who choose to be lapdogs to their Brussels masters. Personally, I've always thought of the Scots and the Welsh as being proud and strong peoples...if they choose to remain suppressed by EU dictat they will have lost any and all independence.

Re' heavyweight, yes the Brexit campaign do need some stronger characters. I'm disappointed that Sir Anthony Bamford, Jon Moulton, Boris Johnson etc., have yet come on board to publicly fight for Brexit. However, the question you/we all need to ask is, "Do you need a heavyweight to make your decision for you?" I would hope we all have strength of mind and intelligence to understand that a Brexit is the ONLY correct option for the future of the UK.

[iphonedyou]

Northern Munkee said:

Not with that kind of defeatist talk. Your talk is programming you've been given by the leftie libtards. This referenda is being driven from the bottom up, not top down, the only reason we've a referenda at all is public opinion is ahead of the politicians.

Show some backbone!

Why the plural though?

[turbobloke]

iphonedyou said:

Northern Munkee said:

Not with that kind of defeatist talk. Your talk is programming you've been given by the leftie libtards. This referenda is being driven from the bottom up, not top down, the only reason we've a referenda at all is public opinion is ahead of the politicians.

Show some backbone!

Why the plural though?

Maybe NM reckons it will go 'Out' leading CMD via the EU to order a re-run so we give the right answer.

[Harry H]

v8250 said:

Harry, in the nicest way, MTFU old bean.

You've got me completely wrong. I am 100% an OUT man. I'm just concerned that us outers over estimate the Great British Public.

Lets look at the last general election:-
UKIP were crushed.
People actually voted for David Milliband
Some people voted for that Green Woman

Let's look at Scotlands independance :-
In spite of the massive rally to go it alone in the end they got scared and voted to remain.

Us Brexit people will end up like Nicola Sturgen. Sitting there winging that the decision didn't go in our favour. To be sure of a win we need to go into the polls with a 70% majority in favour of Brexit. That's going to need at least Johnson and several others of his weight to make it happen along with the nutters going in favour of staying in.

[Northern Munkee]

iphonedyou said:

Northern Munkee said:

Not with that kind of defeatist talk. Your talk is programming you've been given by the leftie libtards. This referenda is being driven from the bottom up, not top down, the only reason we've a referenda at all is public opinion is ahead of the politicians.

Show some backbone!

Why the plural though?

Good point. I have no idea. Unless my predictive phone text knows that we'll be expected to vote again if we get the right result.

[Referendum. No it was me]

[Northern Munkee]

Harry H said:

v8250 said:

Harry, in the nicest way, MTFU old bean.

You've got me completely wrong. I am 100% an OUT man. I'm just concerned that us outers over estimate the Great British Public.

Lets look at the last general election:-
UKIP were crushed.
People actually voted for David Milliband
Some people voted for that Green Woman

Let's look at Scotlands independance :-
In spite of the massive rally to go it alone in the end they got scared and voted to remain.

Us Brexit people will end up like Nicola Sturgen. Sitting there winging that the decision didn't go in our favour. To be sure of a win we need to go into the polls with a 70% majority in favour of Brexit. That's going to need at least Johnson and several others of his weight to make it happen along with the nutters going in favour of staying in.

What if all the out voters tried to convince one other undecided voter to vote out, I've been quietly sounding out my work colleagues and dropping the odd newspaper linkie on my FB and Twitter as I come across convincing pieces, especially if it's in the Left leaning press. Drip, drip, grassroots and I'm optimistic that no one trusts any politician (partly by the way our media has gone on tinfoil over the years, and tries to make a drama/crisis out of political issue), but ordinary people do have issues every day that can be linked to membership of the EU the obvious one that matters to them is migration and its impact on welfare services, schools for their kids and housing for their kids in future. The democratic deficit is laid bare the ineffectiveness of CMD in trying to get anything of substance in this negotiation, it makes the argument for us, which is easy to point out. This is why it doesn't need a heavyweight (I hope) to lead it, just enough people to counteract the barrage of project fear and misinformation I expect to be launched by the remain campaign.IMHO.

ETA: I'm not so sure that the Scottish referendum and last GE that there were that many undecided or that the polls were accurate, proven to be wrong in the GE, but I think the 'silent majority' we're just that when polled in Scotland, and they were never going to vote for independence (just a feeling I can't prove) and once again the 'Out' vote portrayed very loudly as the 'nasty' little Englander view (which it bloody is not!) is sat silently waiting, while the Remainers (calling themselves "progressive") shout loudly on social media, and polling aided and abetted by the BBC and vested interests, hoping the herd mentality will push us through the In door.

Edited by Northern Munkee on Wednesday 17th February 12:47

Edited by Northern Munkee on Wednesday 17th February 13:15

[Sonic]

Harry H said:

Northern Munkee said:

Not with that kind of defeatist talk. Your talk is programming you've been given by the leftie libtards. This referenda is being driven from the bottom up, not top down, the only reason we've a referenda at all is public opinion is ahead of the politicians.

Show some backbone!

I wish. We're talking about the public that are sway'd by arguments like "It'll be harder to go to Spain on our holidays" and "Who'll serve us in the coffee bars with out all the Polish" Suff that'll affect their everyday immediate lives.

Do you really think they are capable of looking at the big long term picture of our ability to trade freely with the rest of the world and govern ourselves without significant interference from an unelected corrupt organisation that is the EU.

Most of them will make the decision based on. Is there a chance that I may be inconvenienced slightly in the immediate future by leaving ? If yes then vote to stay.

I'm not so sure - look at the last election and the surprise that threw up as a direct result of motivated voters. Everybody i spoke to about the EU a couple of years ago couldn't give a toss, however everybody i speak to now seems to be more motivated and swayed to the "leave" camp.