The 'No to the EU' campaign
Discussion
AJS- said:
zygalski said:
There are problems both leaving or staying in the EU. On balance I think that the UK is better served remaining inside the Union.
Now a question for you.
What are the disadvantages & costs of the UK leaving the EU?
There really aren't any. Leaving EFTA/EEA would throw up a new trading regime which would take some time to adjust to. But leaving the EU is not the same thing.Now a question for you.
What are the disadvantages & costs of the UK leaving the EU?
What advantages do you suppose undemocratic supranational government brings?
nevermind the legislation by fax aspect of remaining in EFTA ....
mph1977 said:
what makes you think that leaving the EU wouldn;t be bound by the othe 26 EU states to the uk leaving EEA/ EFTA
nevermind the legislation by fax aspect of remaining in EFTA ....
What makes you think they would do this? The point stands, European Union is not the same thing as free trade with Europe. nevermind the legislation by fax aspect of remaining in EFTA ....
AJS- said:
mph1977 said:
what makes you think that leaving the EU wouldn;t be bound by the othe 26 EU states to the uk leaving EEA/ EFTA
nevermind the legislation by fax aspect of remaining in EFTA ....
What makes you think they would do this? The point stands, European Union is not the same thing as free trade with Europe. nevermind the legislation by fax aspect of remaining in EFTA ....
Audi, BMW and Mercedes won't give a s
t becasue they know the powerfully built arseperational company directors will still buy their products regardless of the price ... What is this good will regards renegotiation? What is Cameron even attempting to negotiate? I haven't yet seen anything that is beyond the power of domestic policy.
I just don't see that the other countries of the EU have any real interest which is served by a spiteful trade war when they could have an amicable separation and continue mutually beneficial trade. If they did pursue such a policy it would only reinforce my conviction that we should be no part of such a spiteful and irrational organisation and that adjusting to life outside the whole thing was well worth it.
I just don't see that the other countries of the EU have any real interest which is served by a spiteful trade war when they could have an amicable separation and continue mutually beneficial trade. If they did pursue such a policy it would only reinforce my conviction that we should be no part of such a spiteful and irrational organisation and that adjusting to life outside the whole thing was well worth it.
AJS- said:
What is this good will regards renegotiation? What is Cameron even attempting to negotiate? I haven't yet seen anything that is beyond the power of domestic policy.
I just don't see that the other countries of the EU have any real interest which is served by a spiteful trade war when they could have an amicable separation and continue mutually beneficial trade. If they did pursue such a policy it would only reinforce my conviction that we should be no part of such a spiteful and irrational organisation and that adjusting to life outside the whole thing was well worth it.
there will be no 'spiteful trade war ' ... I just don't see that the other countries of the EU have any real interest which is served by a spiteful trade war when they could have an amicable separation and continue mutually beneficial trade. If they did pursue such a policy it would only reinforce my conviction that we should be no part of such a spiteful and irrational organisation and that adjusting to life outside the whole thing was well worth it.
UK votes to leave
EU26 say " don't let the door hit your arse on the way out "
EU26 say " join the queue for a trade deal ... somewhere down the pecking order ... and standard international tarriffs apply until then "
Nissan, Toyota , Honda , GM Europe, Ford bang out in rapid succession ... TATA move everything other than Range Rover, Jag XJ and Sports car production to India / Eastern Europe ( and wind down UK steel ops)
Siemens turbomachinery, Man B+W etc try to move as much as they can back into the EU and depending on other trade deals for the rest of the world ...
UK bsed premium brands move wholesale and distribution for EU into the EU importing directly to that location
the UK is faced with an exodus of EU nationals who do not want / are not yet eligible for UK citizen ship rpelacing them with an influx of the retirees from the Costas and south fo france ...
AJS- said:
zygalski said:
...Now a question for you.
What are the disadvantages & costs of the UK leaving the EU?
There really aren't any...What are the disadvantages & costs of the UK leaving the EU?
Most decisions in life rarely have a downside. Why should a simple, straightforward matter like the UK leaving the EU be any different, eh?
mph1977 said:
AJS- said:
What is this good will regards renegotiation? What is Cameron even attempting to negotiate? I haven't yet seen anything that is beyond the power of domestic policy.
I just don't see that the other countries of the EU have any real interest which is served by a spiteful trade war when they could have an amicable separation and continue mutually beneficial trade. If they did pursue such a policy it would only reinforce my conviction that we should be no part of such a spiteful and irrational organisation and that adjusting to life outside the whole thing was well worth it.
there will be no 'spiteful trade war ' ... I just don't see that the other countries of the EU have any real interest which is served by a spiteful trade war when they could have an amicable separation and continue mutually beneficial trade. If they did pursue such a policy it would only reinforce my conviction that we should be no part of such a spiteful and irrational organisation and that adjusting to life outside the whole thing was well worth it.
UK votes to leave
EU26 say " don't let the door hit your arse on the way out "
EU26 say " join the queue for a trade deal ... somewhere down the pecking order ... and standard international tarriffs apply until then "
Nissan, Toyota , Honda , GM Europe, Ford bang out in rapid succession ... TATA move everything other than Range Rover, Jag XJ and Sports car production to India / Eastern Europe ( and wind down UK steel ops)
Siemens turbomachinery, Man B+W etc try to move as much as they can back into the EU and depending on other trade deals for the rest of the world ...
UK bsed premium brands move wholesale and distribution for EU into the EU importing directly to that location
the UK is faced with an exodus of EU nationals who do not want / are not yet eligible for UK citizen ship rpelacing them with an influx of the retirees from the Costas and south fo france ...
The influx of people back from Spain has already started, it was on a programme on the TV a few months ago,
who do you think will make up the missing UK contributions to the EU when we leave ?
What was it 1.7 billion for the last bill? Perhaps Greece will pay, oh I forgot they will probably have gone by then.
You assume that the EU will stay the same, it cannot, there are other countries looking to leave, depending on the election in France we could see them leave, what then?
The scare stories were present during the decision for the euro, Nissan said it would have to consider it position in the UK if we did not join, we know how that turned out, they have just started work on a expansion plan for the plant at sunderland, by all accounts it a very efficient plant, why spend massive amounts to move?
zygalski said:
AJS- said:
zygalski said:
...Now a question for you.
What are the disadvantages & costs of the UK leaving the EU?
There really aren't any...What are the disadvantages & costs of the UK leaving the EU?
Most decisions in life rarely have a downside. Why should the UK leaving the EU be any different, eh?
Looking at the medium-long term prospects for the greater number, I'm with AJS-
Looking at the fate of a business owner that built their model around EU subsidies or some other reliance on EU membership, there is a downside for them but it's their fault if they do nothing apart from crossing fingers.
People with limited vision and poor judgement will be scared of change simply because it's change, regardless of whether or not they support the EU for fundamentally EU-ralated reasons.
But we went in to the Common Market as one change and we can get out of the entirely different and pointless EU as another...admittedly it's not pointless to the egos and finances of eurocrats.
mph1977 said:
there will be no 'spiteful trade war ' ...
UK votes to leave
EU26 say " don't let the door hit your arse on the way out "
EU26 say " join the queue for a trade deal ... somewhere down the pecking order ... and standard international tarriffs apply until then "
Nissan, Toyota , Honda , GM Europe, Ford bang out in rapid succession ... TATA move everything other than Range Rover, Jag XJ and Sports car production to India / Eastern Europe ( and wind down UK steel ops)
Siemens turbomachinery, Man B+W etc try to move as much as they can back into the EU and depending on other trade deals for the rest of the world ...
UK bsed premium brands move wholesale and distribution for EU into the EU importing directly to that location
the UK is faced with an exodus of EU nationals who do not want / are not yet eligible for UK citizen ship rpelacing them with an influx of the retirees from the Costas and south fo france ...
And what makes you think this is what would happen?UK votes to leave
EU26 say " don't let the door hit your arse on the way out "
EU26 say " join the queue for a trade deal ... somewhere down the pecking order ... and standard international tarriffs apply until then "
Nissan, Toyota , Honda , GM Europe, Ford bang out in rapid succession ... TATA move everything other than Range Rover, Jag XJ and Sports car production to India / Eastern Europe ( and wind down UK steel ops)
Siemens turbomachinery, Man B+W etc try to move as much as they can back into the EU and depending on other trade deals for the rest of the world ...
UK bsed premium brands move wholesale and distribution for EU into the EU importing directly to that location
the UK is faced with an exodus of EU nationals who do not want / are not yet eligible for UK citizen ship rpelacing them with an influx of the retirees from the Costas and south fo france ...
In a rare flourish of intelligence the Lisbon treaty actually provides a mechanism for leaving the EU without massive knee jerk disruption to trade or squandering the investment of these companies.
Our membership of EFTA also predates our membership of the EU and it's not clear that repealing our signing of the Treaty of Rome would negate our membership of EFTA.
It isn't exactly clear what would happen as no comparable country has ever done it before. However I definitely don't think that a fear of economic readjustment is a valid reason to shun democratic government.
AJS- said:
Our membership of EFTA also predates our membership of the EU and it's not clear that repealing our signing of the Treaty of Rome would negate our membership of EFTA.
It isn't exactly clear what would happen as no comparable country has ever done it before. However I definitely don't think that a fear of economic readjustment is a valid reason to shun democratic government.
despite the fact it's the membership of EFTA that actually leads to a lot of the 'red tape from brussels' often from bodies which are not part of the EU ... It isn't exactly clear what would happen as no comparable country has ever done it before. However I definitely don't think that a fear of economic readjustment is a valid reason to shun democratic government.
EWTD is red herring ditto a lot of the harmonised H+S stuff - there;s every likelihood that Uk specific legislation may have been stricter
Just taking one example.
Ghosn said Nissan would 'bang out' if the UK didn't adopt the Euro, we haven't adopted the Euro and Nissan remain in the UK.
The UK has been creating as many manufacturing jobs in the space of two months as contained in the entire Nissan plus supply chain total. If all jobs are considered, it's a matter of weeks.
The UK post-Brexit will be an exciting and business-friendly place. Relocations in are likely to be the norm.
Ghosn said Nissan would 'bang out' if the UK didn't adopt the Euro, we haven't adopted the Euro and Nissan remain in the UK.
The UK has been creating as many manufacturing jobs in the space of two months as contained in the entire Nissan plus supply chain total. If all jobs are considered, it's a matter of weeks.
The UK post-Brexit will be an exciting and business-friendly place. Relocations in are likely to be the norm.
Edited by turbobloke on Sunday 21st June 20:13
turbobloke said:
Just taking one example.
Ghosn said Nissan would 'bang out' if the UK didn't adopt the Euro, we haven't adopted the Euro and Nissan remain in the UK.
The UK has been creating as many manufacturing jobs in the space of two months as contained in the entire Nissan plus supply chain total. If all jobs are considered, it's a matter of weeks.
The UK post-Brexit will be an exciting and business-friendly place. Relocations in are likely to be the norm.
the Uk is only creating jobs at the rate it does becasue the burden of national legislation for employers is lower than the rest of the EU15 and the infrastructure and perceived / actual lack of corruption compared to accession nations makes it attractive along with international access Ghosn said Nissan would 'bang out' if the UK didn't adopt the Euro, we haven't adopted the Euro and Nissan remain in the UK.
The UK has been creating as many manufacturing jobs in the space of two months as contained in the entire Nissan plus supply chain total. If all jobs are considered, it's a matter of weeks.
The UK post-Brexit will be an exciting and business-friendly place. Relocations in are likely to be the norm.
Edited by turbobloke on Sunday 21st June 20:13
Uk outside the EU loses the effect of the ballance we allready strike ...
Brexit is fantasy from people who believe that Farage is a difference ...
mph1977 said:
turbobloke said:
Just taking one example.
Ghosn said Nissan would 'bang out' if the UK didn't adopt the Euro, we haven't adopted the Euro and Nissan remain in the UK.
The UK has been creating as many manufacturing jobs in the space of two months as contained in the entire Nissan plus supply chain total. If all jobs are considered, it's a matter of weeks.
The UK post-Brexit will be an exciting and business-friendly place. Relocations in are likely to be the norm.
the Uk is only creating jobs at the rate it does becasue the burden of national legislation for employers is lower than the rest of the EU15 and the infrastructure and perceived / actual lack of corruption compared to accession nations makes it attractive along with international access Ghosn said Nissan would 'bang out' if the UK didn't adopt the Euro, we haven't adopted the Euro and Nissan remain in the UK.
The UK has been creating as many manufacturing jobs in the space of two months as contained in the entire Nissan plus supply chain total. If all jobs are considered, it's a matter of weeks.
The UK post-Brexit will be an exciting and business-friendly place. Relocations in are likely to be the norm.
Uk outside the EU loses the effect of the ballance we allready strike ...
Brexit is fantasy from people who believe that Farage is a difference ...
The UK is creating jobs at the rate it does because we are outside the chaos and lack of control e.g. over the base rate that characterises the Eurozone, and because we have started to recover from 13 years of Labour.
Never closer union will preserve and extend our advantage.
The UK outside the EU will be a place of self-determination and enterprise, the EU will only be missed by supporters of undemocratic big government control freakery with authoritrian socialism overtones.
It's good to read of so many pro-Brexit groups about to campaign actively in order to blow away the fog of scaremongering and misinformation surrounding our membership while placing the reality of Brexit before voters.
Having naive schoolboys and schoolgirls voting may not be enough to keep the UK in the EU. It would be preferable to let them have a vote in my view so that an Out vote would leave no room for whining sore losers as we saw in London this weekend over the General Election outcome.
zygalski said:
Also, there is a vast & obvious difference between the UK not adopting the Euro as opposed to leaving a Union to which it currently belongs.
9 current EU members don't use the Euro.
Apples & oranges....
Not at all. 9 current EU members don't use the Euro.
Apples & oranges....
And because we're outside the EZ it will be easier for us to leave.
turbobloke said:
Not at all.
And because we're outside the EZ it will be easier for us to leave.
Thanks for the detailed analysis.And because we're outside the EZ it will be easier for us to leave.
Fairly typical "No" voter mindset. It's so because I think it is.
Let's face it, you're basing a No vote on political dogma & a total leap of faith.
UK PLC is actually doing rather well economically. As far as I know we are still in the EU. Why risk all that based upon a hunch that life outside the EU must be so much rosier?
mph1977 said:
despite the fact it's the membership of EFTA that actually leads to a lot of the 'red tape from brussels' often from bodies which are not part of the EU ...
EWTD is red herring ditto a lot of the harmonised H+S stuff - there;s every likelihood that Uk specific legislation may have been stricter
But trade is not linked tk political uniom. However much you pretend it is.EWTD is red herring ditto a lot of the harmonised H+S stuff - there;s every likelihood that Uk specific legislation may have been stricter
And the possibility of having something worse given the freedom to choose it is about the silliest reason for doing something harmful imaginable. It's like chopping your leg off for fear you might walk under a bus.
AJS- said:
mph1977 said:
despite the fact it's the membership of EFTA that actually leads to a lot of the 'red tape from brussels' often from bodies which are not part of the EU ...
EWTD is red herring ditto a lot of the harmonised H+S stuff - there;s every likelihood that Uk specific legislation may have been stricter
But trade is not linked tk political uniom. However much you pretend it is.EWTD is red herring ditto a lot of the harmonised H+S stuff - there;s every likelihood that Uk specific legislation may have been stricter
And the possibility of having something worse given the freedom to choose it is about the silliest reason for doing something harmful imaginable. It's like chopping your leg off for fear you might walk under a bus.
turbobloke said:
It's good to read of so many pro-Brexit groups about to campaign actively in order to blow away the fog of scaremongering and misinformation surrounding our membership while placing the reality of Brexit before voters.
Isn't this the same kind of optimism that saw Kippers expecting 10+ seats at the GE?Edited by tangerine_sedge on Monday 22 June 12:07
Here is a strong reason for the UK to leave the EU. The opaque, unaccountable decision making with the sclerotic edifice. The standard Europhile argument is " We need a seat at the top table" I doubt we even know where the top table is, let alone having a say.
You know it is really getting bad when the Irish Finance Minister complains about it. The dictatorial nature of the EU is being truly exposed by the Grexit conundrum.
"Perhaps the most telling remark by any finance minister in that meeting came from Michael Noonan. He protested that ministers had not been made privy to the institutions’ proposal to my government before being asked to participate in the discussion."
The euro zone moves in a mysterious way. Momentous decisions are rubber- stamped by finance ministers who remain in the dark on the details, while unelected officials of mighty institutions are locked into one-sided negotiations with a solitary government-in-distress.
It is as if Europe has determined that elected finance ministers are not up to the task of mastering the technical details; a task best left to “experts” representing not voters but the institutions. One can only wonder to what extent such an arrangement is efficient, let alone remotely democratic."
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/yanis-varoufakis...
You know it is really getting bad when the Irish Finance Minister complains about it. The dictatorial nature of the EU is being truly exposed by the Grexit conundrum.
"Perhaps the most telling remark by any finance minister in that meeting came from Michael Noonan. He protested that ministers had not been made privy to the institutions’ proposal to my government before being asked to participate in the discussion."
The euro zone moves in a mysterious way. Momentous decisions are rubber- stamped by finance ministers who remain in the dark on the details, while unelected officials of mighty institutions are locked into one-sided negotiations with a solitary government-in-distress.
It is as if Europe has determined that elected finance ministers are not up to the task of mastering the technical details; a task best left to “experts” representing not voters but the institutions. One can only wonder to what extent such an arrangement is efficient, let alone remotely democratic."
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/yanis-varoufakis...
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