Apple and Irish government collared over tax deal

[s2art]

DamnKraut said:

So, believe it or not... the EU is doing something for the ordinary guy by fighting ruthless corporate greed.

If that is true then it is something that the EU should have done at the outset, not retrospectively. The competition rules have been in place a long time. Either a country has sovereignty over its tax laws or it doesnt. The EU has now, retrospectively, removed that sovereignty. And I still dont know how Ireland can force Apple to pay, Apple can demonstrate that it has complied with all Irish tax law.

[DamnKraut]

Gandahar said:

Ireland has a tiger economy based on low corporate taxation, both stated and unstated.

The rest of Europe has been seething over this for a long time and finally the Irish government has been called to book, no wonder they can't make a decision. They don#t want to upset their EU overlords, neither do they want to kill the golden geese.

The UK should reduce corporate tax rates to below the Irish ones now we have Brexit to give them something really to think about.

Agree that there are black sheep/ tax havens and Luxembourg is one of the worst. Further, the fact that Juncker was prime minister of Luxembourg when such deals were made will probably also mean that the EU will put much less effort in looking into Luxembourg's "tax deals" than this Irish one.

However, it's still better that something is done to fight borderline legal tax structuring at least in some place than just ignore it.

As for the wish to undercut Irish tax rates... yeah, great - help ruthless corporations maximise their profits even more at the expense of society.
And once Albania undercuts the UK tax rate, those corporations will have not an ounce of remorse to fk off and leave British workers unemployed.

This is no "leftie" tree hugging make the world a better place ideological blah blah, just looking at the reality of mutinationals bending laws and regulations whenever and wherever they can to maximise their income.

[anonymous-user]

mike9009 said:

As a high wage earner (£200k pa), I reckon I could move to Ireland, negotiate a lower VAT and income tax rate % for myself, as I will contribute more Euros in tax than a poorer Irish person on less wages.

Seems fair to me?

Mike

PS - I don't earn £200k PA......

Make it 500k or more and the Swiss tax man will do you a good income tax deal.

[DamnKraut]

s2art said:

If that is true then it is something that the EU should have done at the outset, not retrospectively. The competition rules have been in place a long time. Either a country has sovereignty over its tax laws or it doesnt. The EU has now, retrospectively, removed that sovereignty. And I still dont know how Ireland can force Apple to pay, Apple can demonstrate that it has complied with all Irish tax law.

Agree, the EU is a slow moving behemoth. Took them 3 years to dig through all the aspects of this "tax efficient structure". Understandable as Apple probably spends tens of millions every year to create new ways of using tax laws to their favour and surely did their best to slow down the EU Commission in understanding what is actually happening.

You can compare this to a race: whenever the authorities catch up and try to close loopholes, the multinationals will use their most brilliant tax lawyers and advisors to find some other way around paying higher taxes.

Ireland has sovereignty over its tax laws, they could e.g. set the corporate tax rate at 5% or 50% if they wanted to.

Here, it would not have been a problem if Ireland had granted every corporation that is tax resident in Ireland a tax rate of 0.005%. However, they only did it for Apple and thus put other corporations in Ireland at a disadvantage. It's like the Irish government colluding with Apple so as to ensure Apple does not move jobs out of the country. This collusion is done at the expense of the Irish people.

If you work with tax laws you will see that their language is often very ambiguous, leaving room for interpretation. Sticking to the law by the letter can still mean that the taxpayer may be doing something that is morally wrong.

[anonymous-user]

DamnKraut said:

....the EU is helping the Irish people get tax income that is rightfully theirs and can be used for healthcare, schools, infrastructure etc!

The only reason Apple is 'based' in Ireland is the tax deal. Without the tax deal Ireland would get zero tax and would never have got those 4000 jobs. So spare us the shise; who are you trying to fool? The EU isn't looking out for the Irish; they want to stop Ireland taking what they see as 'their' tax receipts. Apple is just caught in the crossfire as the EU tries to fvck Ireland over. Helping the Irish!

[davepoth]

DamnKraut said:

If the Irish Government has nothing better to do than help Apple evade tax on a perverted scale and thus harm the Irish people, the Commission will intervene and help the Irish people get what is theirs: tax income in line with the Irish Tax Code and without any preferential treatment that Apple got by applying ruthlessly any tricks, loopholes in laws and regulations, pressure on politicians (who fear that loss of jobs might result from not "co-operating" with Apple) etc.

You've voted for Corbyn in the leadership election I take it?

The Irish economy depends on this tax dodge - and I really do mean that. Drive out of Dublin from the airport along the N7, or indeed any of the arterial roads, and what do you see? The European head offices of multinational companies. And while it really does taste better there, they did not base their decision on how nice the Guinness is.

Although these companies are paying virtually no corporation tax, they are providing hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs, and so injecting billions into the national economy. The Irish government is not stupid, and if it could improve the economy by being a bit stricter on corporation tax it would do it.

[jamoor]

Quite clear that there are some people here that don't understand the world of business or economics.

Ireland has given apple tax breaks that weren't available to paddys PCs giving apple a distinct advantage over paddys PCs.

EU is unhappy as Apple can conduct sales across the EU with low tax rates putting all other EU states at a disadvantage and again not making a level playing field.

[don4l]

jamoor said:

Quite clear that there are some people here that don't understand the world of business or economics.

Ireland has given apple tax breaks that weren't available to paddys PCs giving apple a distinct advantage over paddys PCs.

EU is unhappy as Apple can conduct sales across the EU with low tax rates putting all other EU states at a disadvantage and again not making a level playing field.

That is an accurate summary of the position.

Ireland is gaining jobs and wealth at the expense of the rest of the EU.

Ireland will not give this up willingly.

Should Ireland decide to leave the EU, then Apple will have to choose between WTO tariffs and corporation tax. There is no competition here. The WTO tariffs are much lower than the corporation tax in the rest of the EU.

The EU displayed an enormous arrogance when Cameron tried, and failed, to renogiatate our membership terms. This attack on Apple shows that they have learned nothing from that experience.

[MrBarry123]

From what I've read and/or listened to, this "deal" has allowed Apple to pay a maximum tax rate of just 1% (often much less) even though Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5%.

As much as I'm all for enterprise and helping businesses, it's quite clear this is completely and utterly wrong and unfair; having allowed Apple to (pretty much) avoid paying tax on the profits from all of their worldwide sales.

And if I lived in Ireland I'd be furious. Apple employs approximately 6,000 people in Ireland and married people pay 20% income tax on €0-42,800 income earned. For the ease of calculation*, let's assume that each employee is married and earns €42,800. 6,000 employees therefore earn a collective figure from Apple of €256,800,000. 20% of this figure is €51,360,000 which is the income tax earned by the Irish government from Apple.

Overall, it doesn't look like a great deal for Ireland...

*I would assume this calculation is far kinder [to Apple] than the reality.

[don4l]

mike9009 said:

don4l said:

Ireland is doing well.

Please feel free to explain how Ireand woud have done better if Apple had paid more tax?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11855990

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/24/i...


It may have helped here?

Edited by mike9009 on Wednesday 31st August 22:56

Type the phrase "useless gobste" into google images and you will see 22 photos of the "expert" that is shown in your Guardian link.

Here you go...

[The Mad Monk]

don4l said:

mike9009 said:

don4l said:

Ireland is doing well.

Please feel free to explain how Ireand woud have done better if Apple had paid more tax?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11855990

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/24/i...


It may have helped here?

Edited by mike9009 on Wednesday 31st August 22:56

Type the phrase "useless gobste" into google images and you will see 22 photos of the "expert" that is shown in your Guardian link.

Here you go...

Oh!

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2010/11/irish-daily...

[Hosenbugler]

MrBarry123 said:

From what I've read and/or listened to, this "deal" has allowed Apple to pay a maximum tax rate of just 1% (often much less) even though Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5%.

As much as I'm all for enterprise and helping businesses, it's quite clear this is completely and utterly wrong and unfair; having allowed Apple to (pretty much) avoid paying tax on the profits from all of their worldwide sales.

And if I lived in Ireland I'd be furious. Apple employs approximately 6,000 people in Ireland and married people pay 20% income tax on €0-42,800 income earned. For the ease of calculation*, let's assume that each employee is married and earns €42,800. 6,000 employees therefore earn a collective figure from Apple of €256,800,000. 20% of this figure is €51,360,000 which is the income tax earned by the Irish government from Apple.

Overall, it doesn't look like a great deal for Ireland...

*I would assume this calculation is far kinder [to Apple] than the reality.

Absurd analogy. Since when did married couples pay corporation tax?. Fact is Apple paid virtually none, but there again, they created 5500 jobs, jobs filled by married people , who do indeed payn income tax. Tax paid to the Irish state , tax receipts taken, that would not be oi the jobs did not exist in the first place.

[jamoor]

MrBarry123 said:

From what I've read and/or listened to, this "deal" has allowed Apple to pay a maximum tax rate of just 1% (often much less) even though Ireland's corporate tax rate is 12.5%.

As much as I'm all for enterprise and helping businesses, it's quite clear this is completely and utterly wrong and unfair; having allowed Apple to (pretty much) avoid paying tax on the profits from all of their worldwide sales.

And if I lived in Ireland I'd be furious. Apple employs approximately 6,000 people in Ireland and married people pay 20% income tax on €0-42,800 income earned. For the ease of calculation*, let's assume that each employee is married and earns €42,800. 6,000 employees therefore earn a collective figure from Apple of €256,800,000. 20% of this figure is €51,360,000 which is the income tax earned by the Irish government from Apple.

Overall, it doesn't look like a great deal for Ireland...

*I would assume this calculation is far kinder [to Apple] than the reality.

In all fairness, what are Apple going to do next, up roots and move to another EU state to save on taxes? Apple aren't the ones calling the shots here.

[don4l]

The Mad Monk said:

don4l said:

mike9009 said:

don4l said:

Ireland is doing well.

Please feel free to explain how Ireand woud have done better if Apple had paid more tax?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11855990

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/nov/24/i...


It may have helped here?

Edited by mike9009 on Wednesday 31st August 22:56

Type the phrase "useless gobste" into google images and you will see 22 photos of the "expert" that is shown in your Guardian link.

Here you go...

Oh!

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2010/11/irish-daily...

Bloody swear filter!

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=gobstes&bi...

To see the link, quote this post, and then copy and paste the link into your browser.

[Alpinestars]

don4l said:

That is an accurate summary of the position.

Ireland is gaining jobs and wealth at the expense of the rest of the EU.

Ireland will not give this up willingly.

Should Ireland decide to leave the EU, then Apple will have to choose between WTO tariffs and corporation tax. There is no competition here. The WTO tariffs are much lower than the corporation tax in the rest of the EU.

The EU displayed an enormous arrogance when Cameron tried, and failed, to renogiatate our membership terms. This attack on Apple shows that they have learned nothing from that experience.

The structure also relies on Apple being able to make royalty payments to it's "Head Office". I suspect they have a Dutch co interposed between Ireland and Bermuda/Cayman to manage this at present. If they left the EU, there could well be penal WHT rates of say 25% on payments, far outweighing any low tax rate.

[don4l]

Alpinestars said:

don4l said:

That is an accurate summary of the position.

Ireland is gaining jobs and wealth at the expense of the rest of the EU.

Ireland will not give this up willingly.

Should Ireland decide to leave the EU, then Apple will have to choose between WTO tariffs and corporation tax. There is no competition here. The WTO tariffs are much lower than the corporation tax in the rest of the EU.

The EU displayed an enormous arrogance when Cameron tried, and failed, to renogiatate our membership terms. This attack on Apple shows that they have learned nothing from that experience.

The structure also relies on Apple being able to make royalty payments to it's "Head Office". I suspect they have a Dutch co interposed between Ireland and Bermuda/Cayman to manage this at present. If they left the EU, there could well be penal WHT rates of say 25% on payments, far outweighing any low tax rate.

Please explain. Who would impose these penal rates?

[DamnKraut]

fblm said:

The only reason Apple is 'based' in Ireland is the tax deal. Without the tax deal Ireland would get zero tax and would never have got those 4000 jobs. So spare us the shise; who are you trying to fool? The EU isn't looking out for the Irish; they want to stop Ireland taking what they see as 'their' tax receipts. Apple is just caught in the crossfire as the EU tries to fvck Ireland over. Helping the Irish!

Agree that I sounded like the EU Commission's press secretary there

There is no such thing as the "EU's tax receipts". Taxation is within the authority of EU member states. The EU gets enough money thrown at them so as to not need the money that Apple should have paid in taxes in Ireland. What the EU cannot allow though is member states not sticking to the level playing field of the common market by giving single companies preferred treatment based on their importance to the country's economy.

Apple has been in Ireland since 1980, the tax deals are newer than that if I am correctly informed. So the deals were not the original reason Apple chose Ireland for their operations. Apple will stay in Ireland, Apple has already set up an escrow account for the expected payment they will need to make - which is pretty much them expecting to lose this. And rightly so.

The EU is not fking Ireland, do you think they would want Ireland to go the same way as the UK?

Apple on the other hand is not an innocent little virgin stumbling into a cross fire. They are the fking perpetrators here and Tim Cook can swear all he want that this is politically motivated.

[Dr Jekyll]

DamnKraut said:

What the EU cannot allow though is member states not sticking to the level playing field of the common market by giving single companies preferred treatment based on their importance to the country's economy.

But the EU does allow individual countries to set their own corporation tax rates, surely there isn't a level playing field irrespective of Apple's tax position.

[DamnKraut]

davepoth said:

You've voted for Corbyn in the leadership election I take it?

The Irish economy depends on this tax dodge - and I really do mean that. Drive out of Dublin from the airport along the N7, or indeed any of the arterial roads, and what do you see? The European head offices of multinational companies. And while it really does taste better there, they did not base their decision on how nice the Guinness is.

Although these companies are paying virtually no corporation tax, they are providing hundreds of thousands of well-paying jobs, and so injecting billions into the national economy. The Irish government is not stupid, and if it could improve the economy by being a bit stricter on corporation tax it would do it.

Nah, as a Krautie living in the land of windmills and canals I couldn't bother less with the woes of the British social democrats.

I have been to Ireland in the past and fully agree with you that the country depends on its low corporation tax rate to attract and keep foreign investment. I have no issue with multi nationals doing tax deals with the Irish government and pay say 10% corp income tax vs 12.5% that a local smaller company would pay, still very low as it is as compared e.g. to the US (ignoring any tax breaks, loopholes etc that the US tax system may offer).

Where this gets out of hand is when multi nationals use their power to avoid tax to a degree that they end up paying as little corp tax as Apple does in Ireland. If this sets an example and Apple can push this through without being penalised that is bad omen where the Irish state may face other multi nationals pushing the envelope in the same way.

[jamoor]

Dr Jekyll said:

But the EU does allow individual countries to set their own corporation tax rates, surely there isn't a level playing field irrespective of Apple's tax position.

There in't because Paddys PC's cannot use the same terms Apple has.