EU Referendum Poll - Final Call
Poll: EU Referendum Poll - Final Call
Total Members Polled: 803
Discussion
walm said:
TroubledSoul said:
AJL308 said:
It is.
Either you want UK laws to be made in a foreign country, by foreigners who owe no allegiance to the UK, or you don't.
If you don't then you can't vote remain.
It really isn't. A unified Europe with a standardised set of underlying laws isn't a bad thing. The problem is when laws really aren't suitable for us/our culture and there's seemingly no way of doing anything about it. Either you want UK laws to be made in a foreign country, by foreigners who owe no allegiance to the UK, or you don't.
If you don't then you can't vote remain.
If that could be addressed then the reasons to leave would be diminished somewhat.
He wants Welshmen and Scots deciding on laws for the English.
Which seems equally as absurd as a Frenchman deciding on English laws.
To argue that localised setting of laws is better you need to show where the line SHOULD be drawn.
I mean, why stop at Westminster, shouldn't it be more local than that? England? Or perhaps by county or by village??
Obviously there is a happy medium somewhere.
I just haven't seen a particularly compelling argument to show that Westminster (with an unelected senior house and fricking veto by a MONARCH) is somehow THE BEST VERSION of democracy!!
In any case, the number of EU laws that actually apply appears to be minimal and closely in proportion to how much of a say we seem to have over there.
Perhaps the argument would have more sway if the EU made ALL our laws. But they very much don't and the mostly leave us to our own devices, which seems OK to me.
Even if the ability to do so exists in theory it would mean that we would no longer be a monarchy the next day! I think it was even mentioned that it had happened in modern history. That' definitely false.
In fact, the only occasion in modern history where the monarch has exercised real power to influence Parliament was when the Lords continually blocked the budget of 1910. Th King threatened to appoint more Lords so the elected government of the day could pass the budget it was elected on. Even then it was not needed.
AJL308 said:
I keep reading the flat out untruth that the Monarch can veto the will of Parliament.
Even if the ability to do so exists in theory it would mean that we would no longer be a monarchy the next day! I think it was even mentioned that it had happened in modern history. That' definitely false.
In fact, the only occasion in modern history where the monarch has exercised real power to influence Parliament was when the Lords continually blocked the budget of 1910. Th King threatened to appoint more Lords so the elected government of the day could pass the budget it was elected on. Even then it was not needed.
That is entirely fair. You are right. Sorry. I was exaggerating for effect.Even if the ability to do so exists in theory it would mean that we would no longer be a monarchy the next day! I think it was even mentioned that it had happened in modern history. That' definitely false.
In fact, the only occasion in modern history where the monarch has exercised real power to influence Parliament was when the Lords continually blocked the budget of 1910. Th King threatened to appoint more Lords so the elected government of the day could pass the budget it was elected on. Even then it was not needed.
I still would love to see a solid argument to show that the very best line to draw is at Westminster rather than more locally or less locally than that.
For example, it never seems to bother Brexiteers that Scottish people, who generally loathe the English, are voting on our laws, yet that is somehow better than a perhaps more friendly Belgian or whoever.
The idea that Westminster is the democratic ideal (or perhaps best practical solution) seems to be assumed rather than proven.
Whereas Remainers aren't so dogmatic.
Most I speak to think the EU isn't the best, but isn't so bad that it is worth voting for the strong possibility of recession to be rid of it.
When all this unravels, there's going to be some serious Euro issues.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-do...
Deutsche Bank's $75 Trillion In Derivatives Is 20 Times Greater Than German GDP
In or Out?
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-05-23/moodys-do...
Deutsche Bank's $75 Trillion In Derivatives Is 20 Times Greater Than German GDP
In or Out?
Edited by Candellara on Wednesday 22 June 09:55
Edited by Candellara on Wednesday 22 June 09:56
The UK's pockets will be dipped one way or another until we are all in the same boat.
Voting Remain is like strapping ourselves to the deck of the Titanic.
(Our share of IMF loans, bailout loans, bank ownership, massively increased budget demands and extra funds for refugee crisis etc. etc.........)
Remember the EU Commission previously acted in flagrant breach of an agreement with the UK
March 2011 the Government secured a political commitment in the recital to a Decision of the European Council that the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM) should not be used for supporting the Eurozone. In his January 2013 Bloomberg Speech which launched the renegotiation, David Cameron, said "look too at what we have achieved already. Ending Britain’s obligation to bail-out Eurozone members".
On 17 July 2015, contrary to the 2011 agreement, the Commission decided to use the EFSM to grant €7 billion in bridging finance to Greece.
Voting Remain is like strapping ourselves to the deck of the Titanic.
(Our share of IMF loans, bailout loans, bank ownership, massively increased budget demands and extra funds for refugee crisis etc. etc.........)
Remember the EU Commission previously acted in flagrant breach of an agreement with the UK
March 2011 the Government secured a political commitment in the recital to a Decision of the European Council that the European Financial Stabilisation Mechanism (EFSM) should not be used for supporting the Eurozone. In his January 2013 Bloomberg Speech which launched the renegotiation, David Cameron, said "look too at what we have achieved already. Ending Britain’s obligation to bail-out Eurozone members".
On 17 July 2015, contrary to the 2011 agreement, the Commission decided to use the EFSM to grant €7 billion in bridging finance to Greece.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Voting Remain is like strapping ourselves to the deck of the Titanic.
Several of my more rational friends have made this argument.But when pushed, other than pointing to Greece (which is absolutely TINY: 1.3% of EU GDP), they don't seem to have much to back it up.
Sure we are growing a little faster but in aggregate the EU is still growing.
It just isn't a "Titanic" by any reasonable definition I can find... what exactly do you mean by that??
And even if the EU were some economic disaster in process, it would have a SEVERE IMPACT on us whether we are in or out - AND it's reasonably likely that a Brexit would push the EU further towards that disaster; certainly it won't help.
€7bn is an absolute pittance compared to the ramifications of Brexit on our own growth, not to mention the REST of the EU's.
I've flip flopped back and forth over this for months, starting as remain then being undecided and bouncing back and forth. My mind is made up....
Leave! Apart from all the window dressing issues which might affect me in the short term the long term issue is that the EU is not the way to integrate nations together. It's a (bad) short term fix to a short term problem. It's core idea is to create a European country, to homologate all the peoples and ideas within with top down governance. It may work for some European countries but it will not work globally, the EU will not slowly absorb the world (as much as it wants) and other continental countries will not emerge and then slowly be melded into one globally country.
The world will move forward with separate nations and a few common simple laws to make sure people have equal rights, an advanced form of the UN. If you look at the issues with trying to merge Greece and Germany and think that's bad how will Europe and Africa ever merge? We're being asked to give our selves up for short term gain (if any) but in the long run we'll be culturally poorer. Nobody will stop talking to our neighbours, no tourists or workers will be kicked out, we will not become a fortress, we are not voting in racists etc.
Look at technology like Uber etc, democracy will be decentralised, there is no logistical or practical reason people will not be able to vote on every single issue one day if we so choose. The opt out we've secured is not a deal it's even worse, we and the other nations in the circle will become an Outer EU the countries who refuse to fully merge into the single central country, better to be fully out and be ourselves. Plenty of European and global countries to form deal and agreements with. The EU will not be the defacto way of building a common integrated world it'll be seen as a backwards authoritarian first attempt, rushed forward too fats without proper thought. Better to wait for the next bus where people opt in and countries are not pushed and shoved around.
Leave! Apart from all the window dressing issues which might affect me in the short term the long term issue is that the EU is not the way to integrate nations together. It's a (bad) short term fix to a short term problem. It's core idea is to create a European country, to homologate all the peoples and ideas within with top down governance. It may work for some European countries but it will not work globally, the EU will not slowly absorb the world (as much as it wants) and other continental countries will not emerge and then slowly be melded into one globally country.
The world will move forward with separate nations and a few common simple laws to make sure people have equal rights, an advanced form of the UN. If you look at the issues with trying to merge Greece and Germany and think that's bad how will Europe and Africa ever merge? We're being asked to give our selves up for short term gain (if any) but in the long run we'll be culturally poorer. Nobody will stop talking to our neighbours, no tourists or workers will be kicked out, we will not become a fortress, we are not voting in racists etc.
Look at technology like Uber etc, democracy will be decentralised, there is no logistical or practical reason people will not be able to vote on every single issue one day if we so choose. The opt out we've secured is not a deal it's even worse, we and the other nations in the circle will become an Outer EU the countries who refuse to fully merge into the single central country, better to be fully out and be ourselves. Plenty of European and global countries to form deal and agreements with. The EU will not be the defacto way of building a common integrated world it'll be seen as a backwards authoritarian first attempt, rushed forward too fats without proper thought. Better to wait for the next bus where people opt in and countries are not pushed and shoved around.
MDMetal - you make some great points.
The only bit I strongly disagree with is that a full-on recession combined with political turmoil isn't "window dressing", IMHO.
Also, I know that many Brexiters suggest that the EU wants to absorb the world, but isn't it the other way round?
Turkey has been knocking on the door for over three decades!
The EU doesn't want more members as an explict strategy, IIRC, it has just laid down the rules for entry and anyone can apply!
(And after the Greek debacle, I think entry will be a lot tougher going forward...)
I just haven't seen a huge loss of culture, either, other than that forced upon us by handwringing political correctness and the permanently offended-on-others'-behalf.
Sure we have more Polish people around but I still like a nice cuppa while wearing a bowler hat and watching the cricket!
The only bit I strongly disagree with is that a full-on recession combined with political turmoil isn't "window dressing", IMHO.
Also, I know that many Brexiters suggest that the EU wants to absorb the world, but isn't it the other way round?
Turkey has been knocking on the door for over three decades!
The EU doesn't want more members as an explict strategy, IIRC, it has just laid down the rules for entry and anyone can apply!
(And after the Greek debacle, I think entry will be a lot tougher going forward...)
I just haven't seen a huge loss of culture, either, other than that forced upon us by handwringing political correctness and the permanently offended-on-others'-behalf.
Sure we have more Polish people around but I still like a nice cuppa while wearing a bowler hat and watching the cricket!
Jockman said:
walm said:
For example, it never seems to bother Brexiteers that Scottish people, who generally loathe the English...
Seriously?
Quite. There are idiots in each of the home nations. However IMO in each of them the idiots are hugely outnumbered by those who have no issue at all with the other nations. walm said:
Several of my more rational friends have made this argument.
But when pushed, other than pointing to Greece (which is absolutely TINY: 1.3% of EU GDP), they don't seem to have much to back it up.
Sure we are growing a little faster but in aggregate the EU is still growing.
It just isn't a "Titanic" by any reasonable definition I can find... what exactly do you mean by that??
And even if the EU were some economic disaster in process, it would have a SEVERE IMPACT on us whether we are in or out - AND it's reasonably likely that a Brexit would push the EU further towards that disaster; certainly it won't help.
€7bn is an absolute pittance compared to the ramifications of Brexit on our own growth, not to mention the REST of the EU's.
But as the UK will have secured deals with none EU counties when the EU goes Tits up, it will not be so hard a hit if we stay in.But when pushed, other than pointing to Greece (which is absolutely TINY: 1.3% of EU GDP), they don't seem to have much to back it up.
Sure we are growing a little faster but in aggregate the EU is still growing.
It just isn't a "Titanic" by any reasonable definition I can find... what exactly do you mean by that??
And even if the EU were some economic disaster in process, it would have a SEVERE IMPACT on us whether we are in or out - AND it's reasonably likely that a Brexit would push the EU further towards that disaster; certainly it won't help.
€7bn is an absolute pittance compared to the ramifications of Brexit on our own growth, not to mention the REST of the EU's.
Jockman said:
walm said:
For example, it never seems to bother Brexiteers that Scottish people, who generally loathe the English...
Seriously?Maybe not at all... sorry.
Isn't it just a little ironic that Brexiteers want to hand ALL the "democratic" power to Westminster, which would lead to the Scots voting to devolve (and rejoin the EU).
In other words, Brexit would be giving more power to lawmakers WHO DON'T WANT IT!!
Timmy40 said:
Jockman said:
walm said:
For example, it never seems to bother Brexiteers that Scottish people, who generally loathe the English...
Seriously? Quite. There are idiots in each of the home nations. However IMO in each of them the idiots are hugely outnumbered by those who have no issue at all with the other nations. eatcustard said:
But as the UK will have secured deals with non-EU counties when the EU goes Tits up, it will not be so hard a hit compared to if we stay in.
1. It's far from clear that the EU will go "tits up", IMHO (although Brexit certainly won't help).2. Given the delay in sorting the trade negotiations it looks likely that for at least two years most exports will continue to go where they are going now.
And even if 1 is so obvious then sensible businesses will be diversifying away from the EU right now - whether or not we are in.
Again, at the margin you are possibly right.
It will force lazy businesses lacking in foresight to diversify away but that takes a huge amount of time and isn't overly easy.
And in the meantime we may have gone tits up ourselves with a recession of our own!
walm said:
MDMetal - you make some great points.
The only bit I strongly disagree with is that a full-on recession combined with political turmoil isn't "window dressing", IMHO.
Also, I know that many Brexiters suggest that the EU wants to absorb the world, but isn't it the other way round?
Turkey has been knocking on the door for over three decades!
The EU doesn't want more members as an explict strategy, IIRC, it has just laid down the rules for entry and anyone can apply!
(And after the Greek debacle, I think entry will be a lot tougher going forward...)
I just haven't seen a huge loss of culture, either, other than that forced upon us by handwringing political correctness and the permanently offended-on-others'-behalf.
Sure we have more Polish people around but I still like a nice cuppa while wearing a bowler hat and watching the cricket!
What I've read (which may or may not be 'right') is that there would be a dip after which things would stabilise, whether they improve more than the EU I don't know and I'm not sure anyone can say but I think a small dip is a reasonable cost, it's not a huge dip it shouldn't be a full recession. I totally understand why people worry about this but I see this as short termism. Business especially votes for stability and continuance, it makes planning easier and business thrives in stability but, once the stability of exit solidifies everything will plod on fine with whatever changes are needed, some business will leave and others will come. Tata steel isn't selling up because of the EU, plenty of business has left due to other reasons, change is a fact of lifeThe only bit I strongly disagree with is that a full-on recession combined with political turmoil isn't "window dressing", IMHO.
Also, I know that many Brexiters suggest that the EU wants to absorb the world, but isn't it the other way round?
Turkey has been knocking on the door for over three decades!
The EU doesn't want more members as an explict strategy, IIRC, it has just laid down the rules for entry and anyone can apply!
(And after the Greek debacle, I think entry will be a lot tougher going forward...)
I just haven't seen a huge loss of culture, either, other than that forced upon us by handwringing political correctness and the permanently offended-on-others'-behalf.
Sure we have more Polish people around but I still like a nice cuppa while wearing a bowler hat and watching the cricket!
Too often in life and business we pick what's best or easiest now and think we can worry about tomorrow later, my job involves a lot of fixing processes or decisions that were made in short term interests so I naturally look ahead when making decisions. I think the impact of the EU so far isn't creating any culture loss but we're barely 20-30 years into the serious 'meat' of the EU, this loss will be gradual over time, maybe 100-200 years if the EU persists. I don't believe we'll get more chances to leave but I honestly believe if we wanted to (and I don't think we will) we'd be able to re-join albeit on the same terms as everyone else i.e. minus the rebate and opt out's but for that to be attractive the EU would need so much reform as to be a totally different place where people didn't want or need special deals. The EU desperately needs to weld a core of 5-6 countries together as fast as possible and create a two tier system to stabilise itself. The inner core will be homologated and the outer core will be slowly absorbed if and when needed/wanted. The EU at it's heart knows it's grown too much too quick and this needs to slow and stabilise but the current situation is not one that can stabilise only unity will do that.
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