another abuse gang
Discussion
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
The correct judgement of balance and priorities is the responsibility of senior management, that's what they get paid for.
Indeed, but ultimately they are guided by what the HO measures them on and wants them to focus upon. If a government is partly elected on certain crime and disorder pledges, then they're likely to ensure they are focused upon. V8 Fettler said:
The "courts/prisons are full" argument is flawed, perhaps the courts are very inefficient and perhaps there aren't enough prison places.
We imprison a lot of people (check out per 100k vs other EU countries). It doesn't matter if we don't have 'enough' spaces, it still requires the detection of crime to put people there. The courts are efficient enough to ensure we have one of the highest in the EU per 100k. The UK may well have a higher ratio of prisoners/population than other EU countries, but that doesn't mean that the courts are efficient. Perhaps sentences in the UK are longer, perhaps parole is more likely in other EU countries, perhaps Brits are more likely to commit crimes where a prison sentence is likely to result. Lots of perhaps/maybe/whatif.
woowahwoo said:
La Liga said:
We imprison a lot of people (check out per 100k vs other EU countries). It doesn't matter if we don't have 'enough' spaces, it still requires the detection of crime to put people there. The courts are efficient enough to ensure we have one of the highest in the EU per 100k.
We have a high crime rate, so not imprisoning people leads to a huge increase in the number of crimes (see policies prior to early 90s). A tiny number of people are committing the vast majority of crimes against people and property, and it quite well known that many are only every charged for a fraction the crimes they will be committing - most go undetected. 6 people created how many victims, harmed how many lives?
'An example needs to be made', 'A clear message needs to be sent' etc.
So what example was set by the Council and Police in Rotherham allowing the industrial scale sexual abuse and exploitation of young girls in Rotherham to continue unfettered for over a decade?
How do we balance up what would have been the cost of convicting and jailing those 6 scum bags a decade ago versus the cost of the damage done to the girls that have been sexually exploited?
What cost have the Councillors that stood by and watched it happening paid?
carinaman said:
3 Brothers and an uncle and 2 women convicted of sexually exploiting and trading many young girls.
6 people created how many victims, harmed how many lives?
'An example needs to be made', 'A clear message needs to be sent' etc.
So what example was set by the Council and Police in Rotherham allowing the industrial scale sexual abuse and exploitation of young girls in Rotherham to continue unfettered for over a decade?
How do we balance up what would have been the cost of convicting and jailing those 6 scum bags a decade ago versus the cost of the damage done to the girls that have been sexually exploited?
What cost have the Councillors that stood by and watched it happening paid?
Four lines about the people you blame.6 people created how many victims, harmed how many lives?
'An example needs to be made', 'A clear message needs to be sent' etc.
So what example was set by the Council and Police in Rotherham allowing the industrial scale sexual abuse and exploitation of young girls in Rotherham to continue unfettered for over a decade?
How do we balance up what would have been the cost of convicting and jailing those 6 scum bags a decade ago versus the cost of the damage done to the girls that have been sexually exploited?
What cost have the Councillors that stood by and watched it happening paid?
Two lines about the people who actually did it.
RobinOakapple said:
carinaman said:
3 Brothers and an uncle and 2 women convicted of sexually exploiting and trading many young girls.
6 people created how many victims, harmed how many lives?
'An example needs to be made', 'A clear message needs to be sent' etc.
So what example was set by the Council and Police in Rotherham allowing the industrial scale sexual abuse and exploitation of young girls in Rotherham to continue unfettered for over a decade?
How do we balance up what would have been the cost of convicting and jailing those 6 scum bags a decade ago versus the cost of the damage done to the girls that have been sexually exploited?
What cost have the Councillors that stood by and watched it happening paid?
Four lines about the people you blame.6 people created how many victims, harmed how many lives?
'An example needs to be made', 'A clear message needs to be sent' etc.
So what example was set by the Council and Police in Rotherham allowing the industrial scale sexual abuse and exploitation of young girls in Rotherham to continue unfettered for over a decade?
How do we balance up what would have been the cost of convicting and jailing those 6 scum bags a decade ago versus the cost of the damage done to the girls that have been sexually exploited?
What cost have the Councillors that stood by and watched it happening paid?
Two lines about the people who actually did it.
I thought those that held public office also had some responsibilities when it came to doing their job and reporting concerns and suspicions.
They took public office, those Councillors signed a piece of paper each time they were reelected.
It had been going on for years. Councillors and the police could have stopped it. They didn't.
carinaman said:
RobinOakapple said:
carinaman said:
3 Brothers and an uncle and 2 women convicted of sexually exploiting and trading many young girls.
6 people created how many victims, harmed how many lives?
'An example needs to be made', 'A clear message needs to be sent' etc.
So what example was set by the Council and Police in Rotherham allowing the industrial scale sexual abuse and exploitation of young girls in Rotherham to continue unfettered for over a decade?
How do we balance up what would have been the cost of convicting and jailing those 6 scum bags a decade ago versus the cost of the damage done to the girls that have been sexually exploited?
What cost have the Councillors that stood by and watched it happening paid?
Four lines about the people you blame.6 people created how many victims, harmed how many lives?
'An example needs to be made', 'A clear message needs to be sent' etc.
So what example was set by the Council and Police in Rotherham allowing the industrial scale sexual abuse and exploitation of young girls in Rotherham to continue unfettered for over a decade?
How do we balance up what would have been the cost of convicting and jailing those 6 scum bags a decade ago versus the cost of the damage done to the girls that have been sexually exploited?
What cost have the Councillors that stood by and watched it happening paid?
Two lines about the people who actually did it.
I thought those that held public office also had some responsibilities when it came to doing their job and reporting concerns and suspicions.
They took public office, those Councillors signed a piece of paper each time they were reelected.
It had been going on for years. Councillors and the police could have stopped it. They didn't.
RobinOakapple said:
Three lines about the people you hate, none at all about the people who actually did it.
The officers that failed to stop it did not live up to the Constable's Oath they pledged.The conduct of those officers in failing to adhere to the Constable's Oath is not my fault.
Why would I like or respect police officers that failed to adhere to the Constable's Oath or failed to do the job they signed up for when they didn't stop teenage girls being abused, raped and sold on as chattels?
carinaman said:
RobinOakapple said:
Three lines about the people you hate, none at all about the people who actually did it.
The officers that failed to stop it did not live up to the Constable's Oath they pledged.The conduct of those officers in failing to adhere to the Constable's Oath is not my fault.
Why would I like or respect police officers that failed to adhere to the Constable's Oath or failed to do the job they signed up for when they didn't stop teenage girls being abused, raped and sold on as chattels?
You really are like a broken record.
V8 Fettler said:
Would not the Home Office have prioritised the serious crimes associated with CSE since year dot?
Crime evolves and changes. I think the 'celebrity' sex offending speaks volumes about the culture and the recognition given by the 'establishment' to sexual offending. We had some rather out-dated legislation around sexual offences until 2003. I genuinely don't think those in the Home Office would have realised the scale / scope prior to the last few years when they were wanting the police to focus on specific crime types e.g. burglary, car crime, violence etc. I believe it was also a well-intentioned focus as well as one that sells well to the public.
V8 Fettler said:
The UK may well have a higher ratio of prisoners/population than other EU countries, but that doesn't mean that the courts are efficient. Perhaps sentences in the UK are longer, perhaps parole is more likely in other EU countries, perhaps Brits are more likely to commit crimes where a prison sentence is likely to result. Lots of perhaps/maybe/whatif.
But fundamentally you can't fill any prison capacity without lots of crime detection. La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
Would not the Home Office have prioritised the serious crimes associated with CSE since year dot?
Crime evolves and changes. I think the 'celebrity' sex offending speaks volumes about the culture and the recognition given by the 'establishment' to sexual offending. We had some rather out-dated legislation around sexual offences until 2003. I genuinely don't think those in the Home Office would have realised the scale / scope prior to the last few years when they were wanting the police to focus on specific crime types e.g. burglary, car crime, violence etc. I believe it was also a well-intentioned focus as well as one that sells well to the public.
V8 Fettler said:
The UK may well have a higher ratio of prisoners/population than other EU countries, but that doesn't mean that the courts are efficient. Perhaps sentences in the UK are longer, perhaps parole is more likely in other EU countries, perhaps Brits are more likely to commit crimes where a prison sentence is likely to result. Lots of perhaps/maybe/whatif.
But fundamentally you can't fill any prison capacity without lots of crime detection. Clearly, criminals need to be detected to enable prosecution, but the use of the ratio of prisoners/population to measure the efficiency of the courts is flawed.
V8 Fettler said:
There are substantial differences between the Savile affair and the Rotherham CSE, however there is common ground regarding the "establishment's" failure to deal with both issues at an earlier stage.
Most stages, and not just Savile. V8 Fettler said:
Clearly, criminals need to be detected to enable prosecution, but the use of the ratio of prisoners/population to measure the efficiency of the courts is flawed.
Who is talking about the efficiency of the courts? I said the courts / prisons were full were a reflection that, "it's a given the role of the police was to prevent crime and disorder".
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
There are substantial differences between the Savile affair and the Rotherham CSE, however there is common ground regarding the "establishment's" failure to deal with both issues at an earlier stage.
Most stages, and not just Savile. V8 Fettler said:
Clearly, criminals need to be detected to enable prosecution, but the use of the ratio of prisoners/population to measure the efficiency of the courts is flawed.
Who is talking about the efficiency of the courts?I said the courts / prisons were full were a reflection that, "it's a given the role of the police was to prevent crime and disorder".
La Liga previously said:
The courts are efficient enough to ensure we have one of the highest in the EU per 100k.
Far better to deter or deal with a problem at an early stage using existing resources than to firefight the problem at a much later stage by attempting to re-invent the wheel.V8 Fettler said:
Far better to deter or deal with a problem at an early stage using existing resources than to firefight the problem at a much later stage by attempting to re-invent the wheel.
You could say that about any negative situation. It's not always possible to do that, though, especially with criminal behaviour. To deter it you need to increase the chance of detection/prosecution. And to detect it you need to be able to see it happening, or to have the full cooperation of the victims and corroborating evidence.RobinOakapple said:
You could say that about any negative situation. It's not always possible to do that, though, especially with criminal behaviour. To deter it you need to increase the chance of detection/prosecution. And to detect it you need to be able to see it happening, or to have the full cooperation of the victims and corroborating evidence.
In Rotherham, there was well documented evidence long before the police 'decided' to act. The issue was both police and social services decided to turn a blind eye, both from a PC perspective, but possibly also - pending current investigation - because some of them were complicit in the abuse to varying degrees.Digga said:
n Rotherham, there was well documented evidence long before the police 'decided' to act.
I've not made a study of the Rotherham case, so I don't know what form the well documented evidence you refer to takes. Was it the sort of thing that would have led to successful prosecution of individuals had it been put before a court? Or was it the 'everybody knows it's going on' sort of evidence?RobinOakapple said:
Digga said:
n Rotherham, there was well documented evidence long before the police 'decided' to act.
I've not made a study of the Rotherham case, so I don't know what form the well documented evidence you refer to takes. Was it the sort of thing that would have led to successful prosecution of individuals had it been put before a court? Or was it the 'everybody knows it's going on' sort of evidence?Digga said:
RobinOakapple said:
Digga said:
n Rotherham, there was well documented evidence long before the police 'decided' to act.
I've not made a study of the Rotherham case, so I don't know what form the well documented evidence you refer to takes. Was it the sort of thing that would have led to successful prosecution of individuals had it been put before a court? Or was it the 'everybody knows it's going on' sort of evidence?V8 Fettler said:
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
There are substantial differences between the Savile affair and the Rotherham CSE, however there is common ground regarding the "establishment's" failure to deal with both issues at an earlier stage.
Most stages, and not just Savile. V8 Fettler said:
Clearly, criminals need to be detected to enable prosecution, but the use of the ratio of prisoners/population to measure the efficiency of the courts is flawed.
Who is talking about the efficiency of the courts?I said the courts / prisons were full were a reflection that, "it's a given the role of the police was to prevent crime and disorder".
La Liga previously said:
The courts are efficient enough to ensure we have one of the highest in the EU per 100k.
Far better to deter or deal with a problem at an early stage using existing resources than to firefight the problem at a much later stage by attempting to re-invent the wheel.La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
La Liga said:
V8 Fettler said:
There are substantial differences between the Savile affair and the Rotherham CSE, however there is common ground regarding the "establishment's" failure to deal with both issues at an earlier stage.
Most stages, and not just Savile. V8 Fettler said:
Clearly, criminals need to be detected to enable prosecution, but the use of the ratio of prisoners/population to measure the efficiency of the courts is flawed.
Who is talking about the efficiency of the courts?I said the courts / prisons were full were a reflection that, "it's a given the role of the police was to prevent crime and disorder".
La Liga previously said:
The courts are efficient enough to ensure we have one of the highest in the EU per 100k.
Far better to deter or deal with a problem at an early stage using existing resources than to firefight the problem at a much later stage by attempting to re-invent the wheel.Detection / deterrence of crime is an objective; assessment and identification of risk / vulnerability should be one of several strategies available to achieve this objective.
V8 Fettler said:
This shouldn't be either / or.
Detection / deterrence of crime is an objective; assessment and identification of risk / vulnerability should be one of several strategies available to achieve this objective.
Quite, but when the government defines indications of performance (detections, reductions and other quantifiable data), as 'performance' itself, then it becomes performance. Detection / deterrence of crime is an objective; assessment and identification of risk / vulnerability should be one of several strategies available to achieve this objective.
That doesn't detract from the localised issues, but the Home Office needs to learn from its mistakes, too.
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