Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 7
Discussion
Sway said:
That's your take on it, not the SNP's. Which is exactly my point.
I'm currently an SNP member, I am unlikely to remain so post independence, especially if they continue to support the retention of the monarchy.This is true, for varying reasons, of most members of my acquaintance, so I'm not at all sure that the SNP will be able to maintain power, even if it wants to.
fluffnik said:
Sway said:
That's your take on it, not the SNP's. Which is exactly my point.
I'm currently an SNP member, I am unlikely to remain so post independence, especially if they continue to support the retention of the monarchy.This is true, for varying reasons, of most members of my acquaintance, so I'm not at all sure that the SNP will be able to maintain power, even if it wants to.
A large majority SNP, riding a wave of euphoria after a Yes vote, organising the first election which will write the constitution? Lots of opportunity there for those who desire power to load the dice... Add in an enemy both within and without, and there's vast scope for a particularly unpleasant individual to gain effectively a 'democratic' dictatorship.
I remembered another aspect of the SNP's policies I find worrying - their desire to create a BBC that effectively answers to them.
fluffnik said:
I'm currently an SNP member, I am unlikely to remain so post independence, especially if they continue to support the retention of the monarchy.
I know that somewhere in this long thread I made the point that the SNP support is a a large group of people with disparate and often conflicting wishes united under the patently impossible belief that independence will deliver those wishes.Many will be disappointed and feel cheated, leading to underlying dissensions boiling over and potential civil unrest to follow......
r11co said:
A complex way of expressing simple xenophobia methinks, wrapped up in some psudeo-intellectual claptrap about secularism.
Nahh, I genuinely think that Richard Dawkins is too soft on religion; I'd likely be happy enough with a strictly secular Federal Republic of Britain, especially if it outlawed faith schools.It's the godbothering guff that makes me growl!
r11co said:
fluffnik said:
I think the Swiss and Finish constitutions have much to offer.....
Finland - interesting choice, considering a majority of their own population consider it a 'racist' country....and it's entirely independent of their constitution with its unicameral parliament and low(ish) paid non-executive president.
Catalonia Indy vote this weekend and the EU have confirmed they would be out of the Euro and implied to be out of the EU.
SNP that legal advice / sorry lies and tax payers money to cover it up (god I do wonder why any Pro Yes or SNP supporters don't cringe every time this is brought up as its indefensable and caught red handed)
SNP that legal advice / sorry lies and tax payers money to cover it up (god I do wonder why any Pro Yes or SNP supporters don't cringe every time this is brought up as its indefensable and caught red handed)
r11co said:
technodup said:
Us Proddies saved the union.
Uh oh...
Please, let's not.
You can't go far in Scotland (certainly the west) without the issue being raised. I'd be surprised if it hasn't been mentioned earlier in the thread but it was asked and it was a factor.
I'm notionally a Protestant and am happy to have voted to save the union. I don't see anything controversial in that. And AFAIK it's still SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines at the age of 5 so until they stop faffing about banning football songs and deal with the problem head on they can f
k off having their cake and eating it.technodup said:
r11co said:
technodup said:
Us Proddies saved the union.
Uh oh...Please, let's not.
You can't go far in Scotland (certainly the west) without the issue being raised. I'd be surprised if it hasn't been mentioned earlier in the thread but it was asked and it was a factor.
I'm notionally a Protestant and am happy to have voted to save the union. I don't see anything controversial in that. And AFAIK it's still SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines at the age of 5 so until they stop faffing about banning football songs and deal with the problem head on they can f
k off having their cake and eating it.The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
What you posted isn't a statistic. There is no "divide along sectarian lines" with regards to the referendum vote. It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland. Please don't make it worse.
You are one of the posters who's disgusting views led to the mods closing the Rangers thread - please don't pollute this thread with those views.
Edinburger said:
No. No. No.
The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
What you posted isn't a statistic. There is no "divide along sectarian lines" with regards to the referendum vote. It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland. Please don't make it worse.
100% with you on this one 'burger. As someone who has been discriminated against in their career on 'religious' grounds (another story for a different thread, but suffice to say that it is within the last decade that a certain public service within certain local authorities was forced to drop its blatantly discriminatory policy on promotion when faced with a legal challenge) I have genuine reason for grievance, but if people chose to interpret their choice for or against independence on 'sectarian' grounds that says more about them and their propensities and the backdrop that is the "shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland" that you rightly say has been around since long before the SNP.The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
What you posted isn't a statistic. There is no "divide along sectarian lines" with regards to the referendum vote. It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland. Please don't make it worse.
However, it does prove my point that fuelling division in Scotland is a dangerous and societally damaging tactic considering the undercurrent, and that Salmond deliberately played with fire for his own ends as he was happy to accept 'yes' support from dubious and controversial sources (such as the now ostracised Tommy Sheridan), leading to an element of the 'no' support defaulting from opposing forces.
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 22 September 07:00
r11co said:
Edinburger said:
No. No. No.
The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
What you posted isn't a statistic. There is no "divide along sectarian lines" with regards to the referendum vote. It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland. Please don't make it worse.
100% with you on this one 'burger. As someone who has been discriminated against in their career on 'religious' grounds (another story for a different thread, but suffice to say that it is within the last decade that a certain public service within certain local authorities was forced to drop its blatantly discriminatory policy on promotion when faced with a legal challenge) I have genuine reason for grievance, but if people chose to interpret their choice for or against independence on 'sectarian' grounds that says more about them and their propensities and the backdrop that is the "shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland" that you rightly say has been around since long before the SNP.The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
What you posted isn't a statistic. There is no "divide along sectarian lines" with regards to the referendum vote. It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland. Please don't make it worse.
However, it does prove my point that fuelling division in Scotland is a dangerous and societally damaging tactic considering the undercurrent, and that Salmond deliberately played with fire for his own ends as he was happy to accept 'yes' support from dubious and controversial sources (such as the now ostracised Tommy Sheridan), leading to an element of the 'no' support defaulting from opposing forces.
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 22 September 07:00
NoNeed said:
r11co said:
Edinburger said:
No. No. No.
The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
What you posted isn't a statistic. There is no "divide along sectarian lines" with regards to the referendum vote. It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland. Please don't make it worse.
100% with you on this one 'burger. As someone who has been discriminated against in their career on 'religious' grounds (another story for a different thread, but suffice to say that it is within the last decade that a certain public service within certain local authorities was forced to drop its blatantly discriminatory policy on promotion when faced with a legal challenge) I have genuine reason for grievance, but if people chose to interpret their choice for or against independence on 'sectarian' grounds that says more about them and their propensities and the backdrop that is the "shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland" that you rightly say has been around since long before the SNP.The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
What you posted isn't a statistic. There is no "divide along sectarian lines" with regards to the referendum vote. It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland. Please don't make it worse.
However, it does prove my point that fuelling division in Scotland is a dangerous and societally damaging tactic considering the undercurrent, and that Salmond deliberately played with fire for his own ends as he was happy to accept 'yes' support from dubious and controversial sources (such as the now ostracised Tommy Sheridan), leading to an element of the 'no' support defaulting from opposing forces.
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 22 September 07:00
Group hug?
fluffnik said:
I get on with most folks, Germans included. As a general case, I like Germans.
I also, mostly, like the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.
What I really, really dispise is the Third Reich.
Similarly, as a general case, I like the English, and all the other various inhabitants of these islands.
What I really, really dispise is the British State, which is the self same state as inflicted the rapine of Empire on a very large chunk of the world.
The 'British State' has as much in common with Empire as the Bundesrepublik Deutschland does to the Third Reich. Both are history with the Empire being further in the past with fewer deaths on its hands.I also, mostly, like the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.
What I really, really dispise is the Third Reich.
Similarly, as a general case, I like the English, and all the other various inhabitants of these islands.
What I really, really dispise is the British State, which is the self same state as inflicted the rapine of Empire on a very large chunk of the world.
Your dispising (sic) is purely from a need to pick a reason rather than anything logical. It's simple base nationalism.
Edinburger said:
The referendum is a 2014 event and I'd suggest comparatively very few people defaulted to a position akin to loyalist / nationalist views of Northern Ireland.
I didn't mention NI once. How do you explain Ashcrofts polling then? Or the fact that the most heavily Catholic areas voted Yes against the wind?Edinburger said:
It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Oh that's OK then. It's not as if splitting children at 5 contributes at all to a divided society. It's SNP policy to continue as is afaik. They've had 8 years to do something and haven't. Imagine all the things we'd still have if we just left things the way they've always been- that's one of the worst arguments I've seen you come up with, and there have been many.Edinburger said:
Sectarianism is a shameful aspect of the culture of some areas of Scotland.
I agree. But burying our heads in the sand and saying things like 'it's always been that way' doesn't help us move forward. Edinburger said:
You are one of the posters who's disgusting views led to the mods closing the Rangers thread - please don't pollute this thread with those views.
Do please quote my 'disgusting' views. There was standard banter and nothing more from me. I was never warned or banned and it was closed when I wasn't online.The only view I'm expressing here is that protestants were more likely to vote no that catholics, as I did. The polling supports that view. I also believe that to curtail sectarianism we need to reduce the divisions we artificially create, and schooling is the most obvious and damaging one to start with. But obviously that would be the SNP turkeys voting for Xmas so I'll not hold my breath.
IainT said:
fluffnik said:
What I really, really dispise is the British State, which is the self same state as inflicted the rapine of Empire on a very large chunk of the world.
The 'British State' has as much in common with Empire as the Bundesrepublik Deutschland does to the Third Reich. Both are history with the Empire being further in the past with fewer deaths on its hands.Unlike the Bundesrepublik the British State retains all the trappings and makes a big deal about continuity.
Its favourite gong is the OBE FFS!
IainT said:
Your dispising (sic) is purely from a need to pick a reason rather than anything logical. It's simple base nationalism.
I have a real problem with hereditary monarchies, especially if they claim some divine right (and tax breaks!).
I also think that having a state sanctioned religion causes real problems - makes it tricky to dismiss superstitious pish as superstitious pish.
I suspect my preferred end game might be something like a Bundesrepublik Europa, but strictly secular...
Top tip: Don't copy and paste your typos!
technodup said:
Edinburger said:
It isn't "SNP policy to keep separating our children along religious lines" - that's just the way it's been in some parts of Scotland for hundreds of years.
Oh that's OK then. It's not as if splitting children at 5 contributes at all to a divided society. It's SNP policy to continue as is afaik. They've had 8 years to do something and haven't.I know first-hand about the 'faith schools' issue, believe me, and it would be as politically and socially explosive as anything in the middle-east if that can of worms was opened. It really is something that has to be allowed to peter-out gradually as other social norms take over, which may yet take generations.
You only have to look at the Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act for an example of how both sides will take a well-intentioned (but in this case seriously bungled) government initiative aimed at moving on from bigotry as an "outrage" and a "slight on personal freedoms" and all the usual rubbish that spouts from the tribal sectarian factions. As this example (and your response) proves, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Edited by r11co on Tuesday 22 September 12:28
fluffnik said:
IainT said:
Your dispising (sic) is purely from a need to pick a reason rather than anything logical.
I have a real problem with hereditary monarchies, especially if they claim some divine right (and tax breaks!).I also think that having a state sanctioned religion causes real problems - makes it tricky to dismiss superstitious pish as superstitious pish.
I suspect my preferred end game might be something like a Bundesrepublik Europa, but strictly secular...
t.
fluffnik said:
I have a real problem with hereditary monarchies, especially if they claim some divine right (and tax breaks!).
I also think that having a state sanctioned religion causes real problems - makes it tricky to dismiss superstitious pish as superstitious pish.
I suspect my preferred end game might be something like a Bundesrepublik Europa, but strictly secular...
On those final two points I'm in full agreement with you. I also think that having a state sanctioned religion causes real problems - makes it tricky to dismiss superstitious pish as superstitious pish.
I suspect my preferred end game might be something like a Bundesrepublik Europa, but strictly secular...
On the first - I'm not sure the monarchy will long survive the death of queenie who has been a phenomonal if incredibly privileged, public servant.
fluffnik said:
I suspect my preferred end game might be something like a Bundesrepublik Europa, but strictly secular...
Am I the only one here thinking that voting for Scottish isolationism would be a step further from that ideal rather than closer to?It will be interesting to see what the response is over here to the Catalonia referendum. A result either way would be bad for SNP aspirations.
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