Another cyclist dies in London
Discussion
TheRainMaker said:
For now KEEP AWAY FROM THESE TRUCKS if one pulls up next to you and indicates left "MOVE".
I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too. I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
pablo said:
TheRainMaker said:
For now KEEP AWAY FROM THESE TRUCKS if one pulls up next to you and indicates left "MOVE".
I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too. I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
pablo said:
TheRainMaker said:
For now KEEP AWAY FROM THESE TRUCKS if one pulls up next to you and indicates left "MOVE".
I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too. I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
walm said:
pablo said:
TheRainMaker said:
For now KEEP AWAY FROM THESE TRUCKS if one pulls up next to you and indicates left "MOVE".
I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too. I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
TheRainMaker said:
walm said:
pablo said:
TheRainMaker said:
For now KEEP AWAY FROM THESE TRUCKS if one pulls up next to you and indicates left "MOVE".
I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too. I know it's not right or fair but thats life, you and me have to share the road with these things, they are not going away anytime soon.
Just read some of Digby's posts.
pablo said:
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too.
Never seen it. You are honestly saying you see HGV drivers trying to outsprint a cyclist over just a few yards from a set of lights so they can cut across them mere seconds later?I see idiots overtake (taxis especially) and cut in, but have never seen what you describe. What I do see regularly is HGV drivers indicating waiting to turn whilst cyclists plonk themselves on the inside.
As someone who commuted by bike in Central London for about 15 years, I don't understand these accidents. Well, I do understand very small subset of them, but not the majority.
Option 1 - cyclist goes up the inside of a lorry at the lights. Cyclist is an idiot. Anyone with half a clue goes up the outside, or doesn't go up at all. A major calculation in passing a lorry/bus/ whatever at the lights is whether you can get past it and into a safe place in front of it. Not hard. I have no sympathy for people who go up the inside of large vehicles.
Option 2 - cyclist is at lights, lorry somehow squeezes in next to them. Cyclist is an idiot, they are riding in the gutter, when stationary at lights, sit in the middle of the lane. Lorry is then behind you, everything is OK.
Option 3 - the "rolling" accident. Lorry tuning left overtakes a moving cyclist and turns across them. Lorry driver is an idiot, throw the book at them.
Option 3 is the only one I understand. It does happen, but it is rare. Most of them seem to be "everyone is waiting for the light to turn green, when it does the cyclist is flattened". I don't see how these can be anything other than cyclist error.
Option 1 - cyclist goes up the inside of a lorry at the lights. Cyclist is an idiot. Anyone with half a clue goes up the outside, or doesn't go up at all. A major calculation in passing a lorry/bus/ whatever at the lights is whether you can get past it and into a safe place in front of it. Not hard. I have no sympathy for people who go up the inside of large vehicles.
Option 2 - cyclist is at lights, lorry somehow squeezes in next to them. Cyclist is an idiot, they are riding in the gutter, when stationary at lights, sit in the middle of the lane. Lorry is then behind you, everything is OK.
Option 3 - the "rolling" accident. Lorry tuning left overtakes a moving cyclist and turns across them. Lorry driver is an idiot, throw the book at them.
Option 3 is the only one I understand. It does happen, but it is rare. Most of them seem to be "everyone is waiting for the light to turn green, when it does the cyclist is flattened". I don't see how these can be anything other than cyclist error.
Digby said:
pablo said:
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too.
Never seen it. You are honestly saying you see HGV drivers trying to outsprint a cyclist over just a few yards from a set of lights so they can cut across them mere seconds later?I see idiots overtake (taxis especially) and cut in, but have never seen what you describe. What I do see regularly is HGV drivers indicating waiting to turn whilst cyclists plonk themselves on the inside.
Here's two typical examples of truck driver stupidity.
1. Cyclist is stationary at lights. Truck pulls directly alongside the cyclist and also stops, putting the cyclist completely in his blindspot. Truck then sticks his left indicator on and waits for the lights to go green. When lights go green he edges carefully around the left turn, muttering about bloody cyclists in his blindspot, hopefully not making any mistakes in the process. Why didn't he just wait behind the cyclists instead of pulling alongside?
2. Cyclist is doing 20+ mph in primary position along a city street. Truck is far too important to wait, and pulls across the centre line to overtake. A traffic island jumps out in front of the truck and surprises him, forcing him to cut left again in to the lane the cyclist is occupying. Why didn't he just wait behind the cyclist?
If you doubt either of these; go and spend 20 minutes on the A11 towards Whitechapel one morning. I guarantee you'll see both (along with plenty of other kinds of stupidity from all kinds of road users)
rxe said:
As someone who commuted by bike in Central London for about 15 years, I don't understand these accidents. Well, I do understand very small subset of them, but not the majority.
Option 1 - cyclist goes up the inside of a lorry at the lights. Cyclist is an idiot. Anyone with half a clue goes up the outside, or doesn't go up at all. A major calculation in passing a lorry/bus/ whatever at the lights is whether you can get past it and into a safe place in front of it. Not hard. I have no sympathy for people who go up the inside of large vehicles.
Option 2 - cyclist is at lights, lorry somehow squeezes in next to them. Cyclist is an idiot, they are riding in the gutter, when stationary at lights, sit in the middle of the lane. Lorry is then behind you, everything is OK.
Option 3 - the "rolling" accident. Lorry tuning left overtakes a moving cyclist and turns across them. Lorry driver is an idiot, throw the book at them.
Option 3 is the only one I understand. It does happen, but it is rare. Most of them seem to be "everyone is waiting for the light to turn green, when it does the cyclist is flattened". I don't see how these can be anything other than cyclist error.
Option 2 happens a lot - the cyclist isn't riding in the gutter, they are riding in the cycle lane or bus lane. There is plenty of room for a truck to pull alongside, so one does.Option 1 - cyclist goes up the inside of a lorry at the lights. Cyclist is an idiot. Anyone with half a clue goes up the outside, or doesn't go up at all. A major calculation in passing a lorry/bus/ whatever at the lights is whether you can get past it and into a safe place in front of it. Not hard. I have no sympathy for people who go up the inside of large vehicles.
Option 2 - cyclist is at lights, lorry somehow squeezes in next to them. Cyclist is an idiot, they are riding in the gutter, when stationary at lights, sit in the middle of the lane. Lorry is then behind you, everything is OK.
Option 3 - the "rolling" accident. Lorry tuning left overtakes a moving cyclist and turns across them. Lorry driver is an idiot, throw the book at them.
Option 3 is the only one I understand. It does happen, but it is rare. Most of them seem to be "everyone is waiting for the light to turn green, when it does the cyclist is flattened". I don't see how these can be anything other than cyclist error.
Option 1 happens to novices who are fooled by the cycle-lane that runs along the left hand side of the truck. They think since it's pretty and blue with pictures of bikes on it, that it is a safe place to be.
I really struggle to see a scenario where this could happen with a bus lane. A couple of scenarios:
1) Bus lane is empty, stationary traffic in the right hand lanes. Cyclist has empty lane in front of them, piles down at speed. There is a lorry in the left hand lane. Overtaking test applies - can I go up the inside of this and get in front of it before the lights change? If yes, do it. If no, stop. Would I sit in a bus lane on the left hand side of a lorry - hell no. If I couldn't actually get in front of it, I wouldn't pass it. These trucks aren't exactly speed demons from 0 - 20, if you have to change your mind halfway, you'll make it.
2) Bus lane has bus in it, cyclist waits behind bus. Lorry on the right hand side. Passing test applies, but the lorry has to miss the bus anyway, so will miss you.
That's about it?
Honestly if novices think it is OK to go up the inside of lorries at lights, even after all the publicity about this, perhaps the tube is a better option. Or maybe that is the winning argument for forcing people to take some sort of a test. Going up the inside of a lorry is idiocy on stilts. Cycle lanes - are useless loads of paint, generally full of glass and wandering peds. Novices should be trained to avoid them, if they stayed in the damn road lane, they'd be safe.
Edit - reading your examples above, I absolutely agree that some truck drivers are idiots. Overtaking a fast cyclist and then cutting in - very bad. I have seen it happen, but certainly not everyday, and it is not a truck specific thing. The problem I have with the junction accidents is that most are avoidable by the cyclist.
1) Bus lane is empty, stationary traffic in the right hand lanes. Cyclist has empty lane in front of them, piles down at speed. There is a lorry in the left hand lane. Overtaking test applies - can I go up the inside of this and get in front of it before the lights change? If yes, do it. If no, stop. Would I sit in a bus lane on the left hand side of a lorry - hell no. If I couldn't actually get in front of it, I wouldn't pass it. These trucks aren't exactly speed demons from 0 - 20, if you have to change your mind halfway, you'll make it.
2) Bus lane has bus in it, cyclist waits behind bus. Lorry on the right hand side. Passing test applies, but the lorry has to miss the bus anyway, so will miss you.
That's about it?
Honestly if novices think it is OK to go up the inside of lorries at lights, even after all the publicity about this, perhaps the tube is a better option. Or maybe that is the winning argument for forcing people to take some sort of a test. Going up the inside of a lorry is idiocy on stilts. Cycle lanes - are useless loads of paint, generally full of glass and wandering peds. Novices should be trained to avoid them, if they stayed in the damn road lane, they'd be safe.
Edit - reading your examples above, I absolutely agree that some truck drivers are idiots. Overtaking a fast cyclist and then cutting in - very bad. I have seen it happen, but certainly not everyday, and it is not a truck specific thing. The problem I have with the junction accidents is that most are avoidable by the cyclist.
Edited by rxe on Wednesday 8th June 17:42
Edited by rxe on Wednesday 8th June 17:43
Mr Will said:
Your world where every truck driver is infallible must be a lovely place.
Always on the attack. Why are you so angry all the time?I have many posts on here where I have been happy to moan about HGV drivers, bus drivers, car drivers. As I have always said, there's good and bad out there and as I have also posted, I will never defend the bad.
You keep trying to label me as something I'm not and I have no idea why.
Anyway, as I said, I have never seen it.
rxe said:
1) Bus lane is empty, stationary traffic in the right hand lanes. Cyclist has empty lane in front of them, piles down at speed. There is a lorry in the left hand lane. Overtaking test applies - can I go up the inside of this and get in front of it before the lights change? If yes, do it. If no, stop. Would I sit in a bus lane on the left hand side of a lorry - hell no. If I couldn't actually get in front of it, I wouldn't pass it. These trucks aren't exactly speed demons from 0 - 20, if you have to change your mind halfway, you'll make it.
Bus lane is empty. Right hand lanes are empty or moving. Lights turn red, cyclist stops, truck stops alongside cyclist. Your overtaking test is a bad idea. Either go down the right hand side, or wait until the lights change. You only have to make the wrong call once to end up in a bad situation.
Mr Will said:
Bus lane is empty. Right hand lanes are empty or moving. Lights turn red, cyclist stops, truck stops alongside cyclist.
Your overtaking test is a bad idea. Either go down the right hand side, or wait until the lights change. You only have to make the wrong call once to end up in a bad situation.
...cyclist rolls forward 5 feet and is in front of truck? That's what ASLs are for, and if there isn't an ASL, then just do it anyway. Your overtaking test is a bad idea. Either go down the right hand side, or wait until the lights change. You only have to make the wrong call once to end up in a bad situation.
My overtaking test is simply "is there somewhere safe to go". When I was riding, I'd regularly see cyclists cruising between lines of lorries with inches to spare and nowhere to go. It is just a question of time for them.
heebeegeetee said:
If Mr Aybee thinks he will be seen every time, if the driver looks, then I'm saying he could be totally wrong and could end up dead..
If Mr AyBee thinks that, then you are right.But he doesn't think that.
On planet earth when someone says, "if you have a blind spot sticker, you probably don't look" you don't for one minute mean to imply "I am a total moron who thinks blind spots don't exist".
walm said:
If Mr AyBee thinks that, then you are right.
But he doesn't think that.
On planet earth when someone says, "if you have a blind spot sticker, you probably don't look" you don't for one minute mean to imply "I am a total moron who thinks blind spots don't exist".
Er, I think there are millions of morons out there who think exactly that, the vast majority of them in cars ime. You have to spend some time in a truck to see how people behave around you, it beggars belief. People drive in your blind spots *all the time*, so yes, I think Aybee may mean what I think he does and there are millions, literally millions, who do also.But he doesn't think that.
On planet earth when someone says, "if you have a blind spot sticker, you probably don't look" you don't for one minute mean to imply "I am a total moron who thinks blind spots don't exist".
Just for the record, my personal best is being delayed four times on one journey by people who have sat in the blind spot of a lhd hgv, and whose cars were damaged as a result (and indeed was upside down in the one case).
Eta: Which is why I don't support Digby's view that if cyclists had more training they'd stop cycling up the inside of hgvs into their blind spots - car drivers get more training but they do the same almost en masse, especially in London.
Edited by heebeegeetee on Wednesday 8th June 18:46
heebeegeetee said:
Eta: Which is why I don't support Digby's view that if cyclists had more training they'd stop cycling up the inside of hgvs into their blind spots - car drivers get more training but they do the same almost en masse, especially in London.
We must be thinking of different things. I'm not even sure what you are talking about.Edited by heebeegeetee on Wednesday 8th June 18:46
I have been driving in London since the 90's and can't remember a single incident with a car that compares to what cyclists regularly do and which could possibly be 'educated' out of them.
heebeegeetee said:
Eta: Which is why I don't support Digby's view that if cyclists had more training they'd stop cycling up the inside of hgvs into their blind spots - car drivers get more training but they do the same almost en masse, especially in London.
The difference being, if a driver does the silly thing it's likely to end up as a insurance claim, while for a cyclist it can end up 6ft under.Digby said:
pablo said:
If the cyclist is waiting at the lights, why cant the truck that wants to turn left just wait behind the cyclist. Why does the truck have to create the risk by coming alongside the cyclist, indicate left and force the bike to move? The cyclist is traffic too.
Never seen it. You are honestly saying you see HGV drivers trying to outsprint a cyclist over just a few yards from a set of lights so they can cut across them mere seconds later?I see idiots overtake (taxis especially) and cut in, but have never seen what you describe. What I do see regularly is HGV drivers indicating waiting to turn whilst cyclists plonk themselves on the inside.
k about in a monster-sized vehicle in that way.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff