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Discussion
Grumfutock said:
And having spent well over 7 years serving in that little shin dig I can talk about this with some authority.
So did my brother and 3 of my uncles served in the RUC.Being ex-military gives you no special insight in this matter as your ridiculous comment about Northern Ireland being a British Military Victory clearly demonstrates.
And I'm the f
kwit 
im said:
Love it 
Perhaps you might like to take up the "what a war really is" topic with our resident forces female Ginetta Girl who lists the Northern Ireland conflict as a "probable military win".
It would appear you can't even agree amongst yourselves on what a war is or what a victory entails and yet I'm the one moving the goal posts
And yet you seem to know exactly what war is all about. Tell me for how long and where did you serve?Perhaps you might like to take up the "what a war really is" topic with our resident forces female Ginetta Girl who lists the Northern Ireland conflict as a "probable military win".
It would appear you can't even agree amongst yourselves on what a war is or what a victory entails and yet I'm the one moving the goal posts
10 Pence Short said:
Asterix said:
The location is irrelevant (even ignoring the abundance of natural resources) and the populace hold British passports.
Do you have the same view on Gibraltar, the Channel Islands, Isle of White..?
Why do we cling on to Gibralter? What good does it do us, other than to maintain some false connection to a historical empire? Does it make our relations with Spain better, or worse?Do you have the same view on Gibraltar, the Channel Islands, Isle of White..?
As for the others you mention, I don't see there being an ongoing bone of contention with either, so I'm not sure what the point of their inclusion is?
Asterix said:
I've included them as sovereign assets not connected to the mainland. Just like the FI.
If the issue of 'ownership' is not an ongoing dispute, then including any other island by virtue of it being an island seems a strange way to maintain the comparison. Why not include the Shetlands? Or the Isle of Man?Of course, we could give Wales to Argentina to keep them quiet (though a good chunk of Wales is way ahead of us on that one).
Jokes aside, I don't see what benefit it is to us, to cling onto some tiny islands thousands of miles away, at the risk of international relations and fisty cuffs. Is it worth the aggravation?
For what it's worth, I think the same applies to Gibralter.
im said:
Grumfutock said:
And having spent well over 7 years serving in that little shin dig I can talk about this with some authority.
So did my brother and 3 of my uncles served in the RUC.Being ex-military gives you no special insight in this matter as your ridiculous comment about Northern Ireland being a British Military Victory clearly demonstrates.
And I'm the f
kwit IM, I don't really understand your point of view here, or what argument you are trying to put forward.
By ANY standard, the British Military is probably the most sucessful armed services and have proven it in all forms of combat, all over the world. It has executed missions, rescues, conflicts and wars with positive outcomes on many many occasions. Are you really trying to suggest otherwise ?
On your point about Northern Ireland, eventually events in the field allowed for a political settlement, do you think that would have happened without the RESOLVE to keep going? If we had looked like we might give up, then do you really think a peace deal could have been made ? Are you saying the IRA won the war and so deceided to sign a deal which made them give up militarily ? It is just nonsense.
My point is whatever you think of the justification or reason for war, the fact remains that in our dealigs with Argentina, we must continue to show both the means and the will to fight if required to do so, anything less will increase the chances of conflict. (as happened first time round, when the UK withdrew the only boat we had down there)
By ANY standard, the British Military is probably the most sucessful armed services and have proven it in all forms of combat, all over the world. It has executed missions, rescues, conflicts and wars with positive outcomes on many many occasions. Are you really trying to suggest otherwise ?
On your point about Northern Ireland, eventually events in the field allowed for a political settlement, do you think that would have happened without the RESOLVE to keep going? If we had looked like we might give up, then do you really think a peace deal could have been made ? Are you saying the IRA won the war and so deceided to sign a deal which made them give up militarily ? It is just nonsense.
My point is whatever you think of the justification or reason for war, the fact remains that in our dealigs with Argentina, we must continue to show both the means and the will to fight if required to do so, anything less will increase the chances of conflict. (as happened first time round, when the UK withdrew the only boat we had down there)
10 Pence Short said:
Asterix said:
I've included them as sovereign assets not connected to the mainland. Just like the FI.
If the issue of 'ownership' is not an ongoing dispute, then including any other island by virtue of it being an island seems a strange way to maintain the comparison. Why not include the Shetlands? Or the Isle of Man?Of course, we could give Wales to Argentina to keep them quiet (though a good chunk of Wales is way ahead of us on that one).
Jokes aside, I don't see what benefit it is to us, to cling onto some tiny islands thousands of miles away, at the risk of international relations and fisty cuffs. Is it worth the aggravation?
For what it's worth, I think the same applies to Gibralter.
im said:
Grumfutock said:
And having spent well over 7 years serving in that little shin dig I can talk about this with some authority.
So did my brother and 3 of my uncles served in the RUC.Being ex-military gives you no special insight in this matter as your ridiculous comment about Northern Ireland being a British Military Victory clearly demonstrates.
And I'm the f
kwit 1. So you didn't serve there or anywhere else? And yet you appear to have all the knowledge and expertise.
2. RUC was a police force not a military formation. MASSIVE difference.
3. Being Ex military and having fought in some of the conflicts being discussed kind of does give me a special insight. Being there really does do that. Studying Wiki and playing call of duty really doesn't.
But feel free to keep digging.
ofcorsa said:
Of course it was a military victory. The political will was with diplomatic solutions however.
Interesting phraseology. Actually what happened was with a British military victory looking increasingly unlikely against the tiny IRA and their tactics the British resorted to the political process to bring the needless killings to a halt. im said:
Grumfutock said:
And yet you seem to know exactly what war is all about. Tell me for how long and where did you serve?
Irrelevent nonsense as your posts are proving.No seriously please explain!
goldblum said:
ofcorsa said:
Of course it was a military victory. The political will was with diplomatic solutions however.
Interesting phraseology. Actually what happened was with a British military victory looking increasingly unlikely against the tiny IRA and their tactics the British resorted to the political process to bring the needless killings to a halt. How is the armchair? Comfy?
Gargamel said:
IM, I don't really understand your point of view here, or what argument you are trying to put forward.
I believe this all started with my assertion that if the 'enemy' were Russia or China and not Argentina then there is no way on gods green earth we would be considering a military conflict over a rocky outcrop in the South Atlantic and would indeed be negotiating some kind of deal right now.Can you imagine us again loading men and armaments into a taskforce at Portsmouth (or wherever) knowing full well that the whole lot could be sunk by their superior navy before it had even passed the bay of biscay?
Not gonna happen.
We should put this to bed with proper negotiations. That doesn't neccessarily mean cede the islands but it probably does mean give up something in order to retain the peace. Any agreement could be ratified by the UN and held on file in perpetuity by them.
Anyway, somehow this all got diverted off into the cul-de-sac of previous British wars etc etc etc and for that I'm partly to blame but my point remains...our posture over the Falklands is entirely conditional on who the enemy are...luckily it's a poor nation in South America.
10 Pence Short said:
PRTVR said:
Then I am struggling to understand your logic.
In what way?Grumfutock said:
So on what grounds are your expert opinions based? What is your background to not only offer such opinions but to instantly dismiss everyone else's as irrelevent nonsense?
No seriously please explain!
1. My 'background' is merely A levels in (amongst others) History and The British Constitution. But I've also lived through most of these conflicts and have a very healthy interest in them.No seriously please explain!
2. I don't dismiss 'everyone else's' opinion as irrelevent nonsense - Just those few individuals who think that Northern Ireland was a military victory for the British.
3. Now, other than the fact that you've served in the army...as have many a
holes it has to be said...what special insight do YOU have?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff