Could UK U-turn on Referendum Result (Vol 2)

[paulrockliffe]

sidicks said:

///ajd said:

There is a debate about whether the concerns are about immigration are legitimate or not.

That is the key thrust of what I think is worth discussion, and frankly it is important to get that right as we approach decisions on hard/soft brexit.

I've never said all brexiteers are racist - only some brexiteers seem to say that for their own reasons.

I've also offered the opinion that a key issue seems to be the demonization of immigrants by various politicians. Some politicians do this for potentially racist reasons, yet some perhaps do it just to further their cause/garner support in the typical "nationalist/blame someone else for your woes" way. The latter is arguably racist in any case, depending on your definition, but you could also argue that it is not racism as the "playing foreigners as baddies" is not linked to a belief that your own race is superior, but rather just a mechanism to blame someone else to achieve another objective. They may genuinely believe immigrants are swamping the Nations and its services - but this is I think a point of debate and not a fact.

It is also important to recognise that when raising the issue that some are "obsessed with keeping out foreigners" - this is not calling them racists - it is pointing out that some people are indeed "obsessed with keeping out foreigners". Which they patently seem to be given the focus by some on hard brexit. The reasons might be to do with what they consider legitimate concerns about immigration, but it is reasonable to question whether they are right to be concerned about that in just the same way as they might believe £350m more a week will be spend on the NHS.

It is a legitimate debate.

I do it without calling people racists, nor hurling childish insults.

Ok, so you're still confused between those wanting 'controlled immigration' and those 'obsessed with keeping out foreigners'?
How dull.

And completely ignores that the protectionist, majority white, caucasian EU is far more discriminatory that the reality of Brexit will be.

[paulrockliffe]

steveT350C said:

London424 said:

Interesting from Tusk. I hope the remainers will be up in arms and condemning him and the EU over this disgusting treatment of people.

http://order-order.com/2016/11/29/tusk/

And Merkel.....
http://order-order.com/2016/11/29/merkel-rejected-...

Quite ironic if Merkel's stance becomes, "Everyone is welcome except the Brits."

[don4l]

rscott said:

sidicks said:

You have repeatedly suggested / implied that anyone who voted leave, in part due to perfectly legitimate claims about immigration, is a racist. Of course there will be some racists that voted for leave too, but that's an entirely different issue not under dispute.

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 29th November 18:04

Be fair - his OTT racist accusations are pretty much balanced out by don4l's claims that anyone who voted to remain is a traitor to their country...

I'm pleased that my efforts do not go unappreciated.

I've mentioned the unpatriotic nature of Remainer's views many times.

Nobody has yet attempted to give a concrete reason why seeking "ever closer union" could be construed as "patriotic".


IMHO, ceding sovereignty is inherently "unpatriotic".

[sidicks]

paulrockliffe said:

And completely ignores that the protectionist, majority white, caucasian EU is far more discriminatory that the reality of Brexit will be.

Look, if he can't understand the basics, what hope is there for him to understand the complex stuff?!

[///ajd]

London424 said:

Interesting from Tusk. I hope the remainers will be up in arms and condemning him and the EU over this disgusting treatment of people.

http://order-order.com/2016/11/29/tusk/

There is only one reason millions of expats on both sides of the coin are now living in uncertainty.

And that is your leave vote.

Please don't blame others for your vote, face up to its unpleasant consequences.

[alfie2244]

///ajd said:

London424 said:

Interesting from Tusk. I hope the remainers will be up in arms and condemning him and the EU over this disgusting treatment of people.

http://order-order.com/2016/11/29/tusk/

There is only one reason millions of expats on both sides of the coin are now living in uncertainty.

And that is your leave vote.

Please don't blame others for your vote, face up to its unpleasant consequences.

If you didn't keep abusing, making false accusations of racism, those with genuine concerns about "uncontrolled" immigration then perhaps the result may have been different so in reality the resultant leave vote is your fault and those of you ilk.

[rscott]

don4l said:

rscott said:

sidicks said:

You have repeatedly suggested / implied that anyone who voted leave, in part due to perfectly legitimate claims about immigration, is a racist. Of course there will be some racists that voted for leave too, but that's an entirely different issue not under dispute.

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 29th November 18:04

Be fair - his OTT racist accusations are pretty much balanced out by don4l's claims that anyone who voted to remain is a traitor to their country...

I'm pleased that my efforts do not go unappreciated.

I've mentioned the unpatriotic nature of Remainer's views many times.

Nobody has yet attempted to give a concrete reason why seeking "ever closer union" could be construed as "patriotic".


IMHO, ceding sovereignty is inherently "unpatriotic".

That's where you're making assumptions about Remainers again.

Just because some of us didn't want to leave the EU, didn't mean we wanted ever closer union. Some of us would have preferred to remain pretty much as we were.
There were degrees of remain just as there are degrees of Brexit..

[London424]

///ajd said:

London424 said:

Interesting from Tusk. I hope the remainers will be up in arms and condemning him and the EU over this disgusting treatment of people.

http://order-order.com/2016/11/29/tusk/

There is only one reason millions of expats on both sides of the coin are now living in uncertainty.

And that is your leave vote.

Please don't blame others for your vote, face up to its unpleasant consequences.

No it's people with small man syndrome, like yourself, that stamp their feet if they don't get their own way. The PM was perfectly willing to put everyone's mind at ease that all would have the right to stay. The EU just shows it's true colours in what it really thinks about its citizens.

[s2art]

rscott said:

That's where you're making assumptions about Remainers again.

Just because some of us didn't want to leave the EU, didn't mean we wanted ever closer union. Some of us would have preferred to remain pretty much as we were.
There were degrees of remain just as there are degrees of Brexit..

But remaining pretty much as we were was impossible, not an option available to us.

[B'stard Child]

///ajd said:

London424 said:

Interesting from Tusk. I hope the remainers will be up in arms and condemning him and the EU over this disgusting treatment of people.

http://order-order.com/2016/11/29/tusk/

There is only one reason millions of expats on both sides of the coin are now living in uncertainty.

And that is your leave vote.

Please don't blame others for your vote, face up to its unpleasant consequences.

And on the other side of the coin - perhaps the EU you support might not quite be what it appears to be?

It is a "protectionist club" it's doing what it will always do protect itself

Now it will continue to do that to the end of it's days - we have a head start - lets make the best of that.

[steveT350C]

don4l said:

I've mentioned the unpatriotic nature of Remainer's views many times.

I think the majority of the people who voted remain, and still believe we must remain irrespective of the result of the referendum, are more susceptible to MSM propaganda.

How many people voted remain because the BBC told them to?

[anonymous-user]

rscott said:

That's where you're making assumptions about Remainers again.

Just because some of us didn't want to leave the EU, didn't mean we wanted ever closer union. Some of us would have preferred to remain pretty much as we were.
There were degrees of remain just as there are degrees of Brexit..

Did you find where Donal said anyone who voted remain is a traitor? Or was it a throwaway comment like Ajd saying people on here wanted Daniel Hannah to become PM?

Neither of these things seem to be able to be substantiated by the claimants.

[anonymous-user]

steveT350C said:

How many people voted remain because the BBC told them to?

How many people voted leave because the Sun/Mail/Express told them immigrants/the EU/the 'establishment' were the source of all their woes?

[B'stard Child]

bmw535i said:

rscott said:

That's where you're making assumptions about Remainers again.

Just because some of us didn't want to leave the EU, didn't mean we wanted ever closer union. Some of us would have preferred to remain pretty much as we were.
There were degrees of remain just as there are degrees of Brexit..

Did you find where Donal said anyone who voted remain is a traitor? Or was it a throwaway comment like Ajd saying people on here wanted Daniel Hannah to become PM?

Neither of these things seem to be able to be substantiated by the claimants.

Christ even with my 80 post per page settings (you see 500 pages I see 125 pages) to drag through the threads related to "brexit" and side shows that would be 1349 pages of threads

Even if someone really wound me up I still wouldn't bother

[anonymous-user]

B'stard Child said:

bmw535i said:

rscott said:

That's where you're making assumptions about Remainers again.

Just because some of us didn't want to leave the EU, didn't mean we wanted ever closer union. Some of us would have preferred to remain pretty much as we were.
There were degrees of remain just as there are degrees of Brexit..

Did you find where Donal said anyone who voted remain is a traitor? Or was it a throwaway comment like Ajd saying people on here wanted Daniel Hannah to become PM?

Neither of these things seem to be able to be substantiated by the claimants.

Christ even with my 80 post per page settings (you see 500 pages I see 125 pages) to drag through the threads related to "brexit" and side shows that would be 1349 pages of threads

Even if someone really wound me up I still wouldn't bother

Good point, but then you don't keep claiming that people said certain things without any sort of evidence to back it up.

[don4l]

rscott said:

That's where you're making assumptions about Remainers again.

Just because some of us didn't want to leave the EU, didn't mean we wanted ever closer union. Some of us would have preferred to remain pretty much as we were.
There were degrees of remain just as there are degrees of Brexit..

That, unfortunately, was never an option.

This is the nub of the argument.

Most Remainers didn't believe that "ever closer union" was happening.

Cameron came back from his "renegotiation" and told us that we would be exempt from future "closer union".

Some of us could see that this was a blatent lie. Some of you could not.

All directives create more "union", and therefore without an exemption from the implementation of directives, we could not escape "ever closer union".

[///ajd]

This is Tusks letter.



Has anyone seen Tomlinsons letter?

Fox's own rants on the subject can't have helped.

[steveT350C]

cookie118 said:

steveT350C said:

How many people voted remain because the BBC told them to?

How many people voted leave because the Sun/Mail/Express told them immigrants/the EU/the 'establishment' were the source of all their woes?

'source of their woes'?

You think people voted brexit because being out of the EU would solve their 'woes'????

Jesus wept.

[anonymous-user]

steveT350C said:

cookie118 said:

steveT350C said:

How many people voted remain because the BBC told them to?

How many people voted leave because the Sun/Mail/Express told them immigrants/the EU/the 'establishment' were the source of all their woes?

'source of their woes'?

You think people voted brexit because being out of the EU would solve their 'woes'????

Jesus wept.

'BBC told them'

You think that people voted to remain because 'the BBC told them'????

Jesus wept.

[B'stard Child]

cookie118 said:

steveT350C said:

How many people voted remain because the BBC told them to?

How many people voted leave because the Sun/Mail/Express told them immigrants/the EU/the 'establishment' were the source of all their woes?

Well BBC's Global Audience is 348 Million but in terms of news shows and referendum related programmes in June it looks like 6.5 million is about the top number

If you are talking based on Papers purchased (Sun, Mail and Express)

3.7 million

If you are talking Online users of those papers web sites (Sun, Mail and Express)

20 million


Data from UKIP thread

grantone said:

Side-track, but I was curious about your mainstream media proposal, so ignoring TV we have from June 2016:

Online unique daily users (to nearest million)
15m Mail Online
10m Guardian
7m Trinity Mirror Group (local papers?)
6m Telegraph
5m Mirror Group Nationals
4m Independent
3m Sun
2m Express

Print circulation (to nearest 100k)
1.8m Sun (1.5m Sundays)
1.5m Mail (1.4m Sundays)
1.3m Metro
0.9m London Evening Standard
0.8m Mirror (0.7m Sundays)
0.5m Star (0.3m Sundays)
0.5m Telegraph (0.4m Sundays)
0.4m Times (0.8m Sundays)
0.4m Express (0.4m Sundays)

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/abc-figures-national...