Lots of angry people today.

[///ajd]

BIANCO said:

This has been suggested a few times on a number of news and debate shows. People saying there should be a general election before A50 is invoked. If a party was to stand saying that they will not invoke A50 and if they won they would then have a mandate not to do so.

It's a complete load of rubbish unless that party gets over 17.5 million votes they will never have a mandate to override the referendum. They may ask for another referendum but that's it.

And if we do leave and party should not be able to lead us back in without another referendum asking if we want to do so.

I don't think there'll be another referendum.

But if there was the is plenty enough bregret to slash the majority to nil.

To speculate - what I suspect is likely is that May will get the best deal she can whilst protecting our economy as the overriding priority. After all she can claim this was one of the main thrusts of the campaign - to get the best possible trading conditions for the UK across the globe.

This will involve establishing the costs of EU market access and of all the other things we want to keep. Do we want to keep Erasmus for example?

Once we know what brexit looks like - and it could take a long time - there will then be a debate on how it is activated. If the best possible deal actually looks a bit naff in comparison to staying in the EU, then that could trigger a mechanism to democratically confirm the best way forward. If the deal looks quite good, we must just go for it.

I'm actually open to a good brexit deal being acceptable.....but it seems pretty unlikely and the certainty of having no veto on how the EU controls their single market will remain an unattractive risk to our future economic security.

[Elysium]

don4l said:

A week ago the bedwetters were wailing about the impending doom that would inevitably follow the disastrous collapse of the, previously unknown, FTSE250.


There were a few hours of panic in the traitors ranks when the FTSE250 proved that, as usual, they were completely wrong and it staged a recovery.


Then, one of them noticed that an obscure property fund had temporarily suspended Trading. Oh what joy, "carry on bedwetting" the screamed in their joyous state of hysteria.

Already, they are preparing for the recovery of the property funds by telling us that we are definitely in a recession. After all, we have no figures to prove that we are not in a recession... so, boo hoo, we must be in one.

The problem that these economically illiterate experts face is that the pound has just suffered a sharp fall. When this happens there is an immediate boost to the economy.

Just look at the 12 months prior to our ERM exit. The economy grew 0.1%.

In the quarter immediately following our exit things picked up dramatically and the 12 post exit saw 3.1% growth.

So chaps. I have some really bad news for you.

Everything is absolutely fine.

Really sorry about that, but there you go.

It is clear from your posts that you consider yourself to be far better than everyone else at analysing the economy.

Unfortunately you are absolutely terrible at analysing people. There are no 'bedwetters' here and your attempts to belittle peoples genuine concerns about their personal finances and future are simply unpleasant.

Most of us lived through the recession of 2008. Some will have lost our jobs, others will have clung on as best we could. Almost everyone will have gone through worry and stress about their future prosperity.

It is right and normal to be worried about the economic fall out of the Brexit vote. It has undeniably shaken the world economy. Whilst I am grateful that it has stabilised for the most part I, unfortunately, have no doubt that it is not over yet. Some very big issues remain unresolved and these will have an impact as the way forward unfolds.

None of us, including you, know with any certainty what the economic fall out will be. If you claim otherwise then you are deluded. If your objective is to reassure, then your condescending and smug attitude will simply ensure failure.

Everything is not alright. There are people out there who will have lost a lot of money, who will be worried about their pensions and some who will feel uncertain about their jobs.

Show some respect and compassion.

[turbobloke]

Robertj21a said:

ATG said:

Some of us were working to improve the country before this moronic decision. We'll continue to do so, but we're now playing a substantially worse hand.

Well it's good to see that there's one person helping. Shame that so few others feel the same way.

Indeed but there are lots of people working to support UK plc in many ways following this excellent decision.

The shouty whiners make more noise.

Was there not a post or two prior to the vote about how Leavers would whine and whine when Remain won?

Deciding to whine and whine after the fact is arguably more moronic.

[///ajd]

don'tbesilly said:

///ajd said:

230TE said:

It's certainly one of the strongest protectionist trade blocs in the world.....

....that covers 44% of our exports.


It would be stupid to opt for a worse trade deal with such a protectionist trade bloc, wouldn't it?

It would, so to suggest that will be the outcome of the Leave vote and the subsequent negotiations that take place is in itself foolhardy indeed.

The majority of experts agreed our deal/conditions with the EU would never be as good if we brexited.

This was widely reported before the vote.

Most brexiters took that into account with their vote, yes?

Or do you think our trade deal withe EU could get better if we brexit? Go on say it.

[230TE]

///ajd said:

....that covers 44% of our exports.


It would be stupid to opt for a worse trade deal with such a protectionist trade bloc, wouldn't it?

Not necessarily. Protectionism invariably ends up impoverishing the countries that practise it. It is sand in the machinery of wealth creation. Britain worked that out a while back: some other big European countries (i.e. France) have yet to learn.

[turbobloke]

///ajd said:

don'tbesilly said:

///ajd said:

230TE said:

It's certainly one of the strongest protectionist trade blocs in the world.....

....that covers 44% of our exports.


It would be stupid to opt for a worse trade deal with such a protectionist trade bloc, wouldn't it?

It would, so to suggest that will be the outcome of the Leave vote and the subsequent negotiations that take place is in itself foolhardy indeed.

The majority of experts agreed our deal/conditions with the EU would never be as good if we brexited.

This was widely reported before the vote.

We haven't Brexited yet but you speak as though these experts have been proven correct.

As posted previously, if we get a worse deal the price will be less, and there were strings attached to the inside-EU deal that more people wanted to cut than wanted retained.

Focusing on one aspect, yet to play out, in a cost-benefit analysis must have a motive.

[ATG]

Robertj21a said:

Just because economists and The City folk are so used to having everything go their way, it really is quite enlightening to see how they react when a significant number of 'plebs' think otherwise.

It isn't about "getting their own way". By the nature of its business the City is packed with people who study the economy. Trying to forecast the economy is crucial to running their businesses. The majority of them honestly think that Brexit is going to be bad for the UK economy as a whole, not least for their own sector. How would you expect them to react?

And in all seriousness, why would a "pleb" think they've got a better idea of how the economy will behave than the City? If you want to know how to build a bridge you'd talking to a civil engineer. If you want to know what's wrong with your kidneys you'd talk to a doctor. If my car's misfiring, I talk to a mechanic.

Trusting expertise is normal, indeed it's crucial. We can't function unless we trust experts.

[sidicks]

ATG said:

It isn't about "getting their own way". By the nature of its business the City is packed with people who study the economy. Trying to forecast the economy is crucial to running their businesses. The majority of them honestly think that Brexit is going to be bad for the UK economy as a whole, not least for their own sector. How would you expect them to react?

And in all seriousness, why would a "pleb" think they've got a better idea of how the economy will behave than the City? If you want to know how to build a bridge you'd talking to a civil engineer. If you want to know what's wrong with your kidneys you'd talk to a doctor. If my car's misfiring, I talk to a mechanic.

Trusting expertise is normal, indeed it's crucial. We can't function unless we trust experts.

Aren't you making the mistake that 'the City' is unanimous regarding the long term impact of Brexit.

Isn't it simply the case that 'the markets' don't like uncertainty and, until Brexit terms are confirmed, that's exactly what we have...?

[blueg33]

Jockman said:

blueg33 said:

ATG said:

Robertj21a said:

chow pan toon said:

So we can't refer to Brexiteers as racists or thickos but its OK to smear the other side, got it.

Perhaps if the Remainers ever get to the point of stopping their incessant whingeing, we might just ALL be able to work together to improve the country for the longer term.

Some of us were working to improve the country before this moronic decision. We'll continue to do so, but we're now playing a substantially worse hand.

Probably the single best summary I have seen.

The trouble is 17.4m people didn't appreciate your efforts.

Indeed, or didn't really understand the impact, or didn't listen to the warnings, or as is usual in this country just expected someone else to sort it out.

No doubt the Government will get the blame as the economy falters, unemployment rises etc

[Elysium]

sidicks said:

Aren't you making the mistake that 'the City' is unanimous regarding the long term impact of Brexit.

Isn't it simply the case that 'the markets' don't like uncertainty and, until Brexit terms are confirmed, that's exactly what we have...?

For once I agree. The main reason we have at least some stability at this point is that nothing has been done about the vote.

Once we have some detail on the Brexit arrangements we will find out if the markets like it .... or not.

I hope they like it.

[ATG]

Robertj21a said:

ATG said:

Some of us were working to improve the country before this moronic decision. We'll continue to do so, but we're now playing a substantially worse hand.

Well it's good to see that there's one person helping. Shame that so few others feel the same way.

What makes you think any of the people on this thread who voted Remain are doing anything other than trying to improve the country?

[Robertj21a]

///ajd said:

I don't know what you do Robert but rogering the city is not in anyones interests in the UK. They are too important to our GDP.

The losers when if financial sector gets shafted is absolutely everyone in the UK - we'll ALL be worse off - especially the 'plebs' as you call them.

Thank you, I'm quite surprised that there's something you don't know.....

I can assure you that I'm more than well aware of The City. I'm just so pleased that, most of the time, I can be out of it.

As I'm sure you will recognise, there can be a smug, rather arrogant, attitude taken by some of those working/living in London. Those same people who don't have to worry about their income, their lifestyle, their family or their future. Those same people who expect everything to go their way, who expect to receive ridiculous bonuses for just doing a job well, who are used to not having to concern themselves with all those terrible people outside the M25 [hint - that's the vast majority by the way].

Is it so very surprising that those outside the cosy 'City' don't see any economic benefits of staying in the EU in quite the same way ?. They are concerned about a number of other issues, outside the economy, whether that be sovereignty, immigration or a host of other personal concerns.

Those in The City, or government, foreign observers, or the EU, monumentally failed to understand the concerns of a massive chunk of the UK population - and have paid a heavy price.

Thank goodness we're Leaving, and can start to plan our own way forward, before the EU itself collapses in an even greater mess.

[anonymous-user]

ATG said:

What makes you think any of the people on this thread who voted Remain are doing anything other than trying to improve the country?

Well I wouldn't say the widespread condemnation of leave voters as racist and thick is helpful to the country. Would you?

[Elysium]

bmw535i said:

ATG said:

What makes you think any of the people on this thread who voted Remain are doing anything other than trying to improve the country?

Well I wouldn't say the widespread condemnation of leave voters as racist and thick is helpful to the country. Would you?

Funny, I have read most of the threads on here and have seen hardly any of this sort of 'condemnation'?

[anonymous-user]

Elysium said:

Funny, I have read most of the threads on here and have seen hardly any of this sort of 'condemnation'?

Well I suppose you can gloss over these things, but the supposed lack of intelligence was first suggested on page 2 of this thread and has continued throughout.

[sidicks]

Elysium said:

Funny, I have read most of the threads on here and have seen hardly any of this sort of 'condemnation'?

Widespread? Debatable.
Frequent from a selected few? Most certainly.

[///ajd]

Robertj21a said:

Thank you, I'm quite surprised that there's something you don't know.....

I can assure you that I'm more than well aware of The City. I'm just so pleased that, most of the time, I can be out of it.

As I'm sure you will recognise, there can be a smug, rather arrogant, attitude taken by some of those working/living in London. Those same people who don't have to worry about their income, their lifestyle, their family or their future. Those same people who expect everything to go their way, who expect to receive ridiculous bonuses for just doing a job well, who are used to not having to concern themselves with all those terrible people outside the M25 [hint - that's the vast majority by the way].

Is it so very surprising that those outside the cosy 'City' don't see any economic benefits of staying in the EU in quite the same way ?. They are concerned about a number of other issues, outside the economy, whether that be sovereignty, immigration or a host of other personal concerns.

Those in The City, or government, foreign observers, or the EU, monumentally failed to understand the concerns of a massive chunk of the UK population - and have paid a heavy price.

Thank goodness we're Leaving, and can start to plan our own way forward, before the EU itself collapses in an even greater mess.

Its not just the city that sees a benefit to being in the EU.

It is pretty much all our industry and business.

Airbus, JLR, Nissan, BMWMini, Banks, Pharma, etc. etc.

There are one or two high profile exceptions - e.g. Dyson - but they for example make everything in Malaysia anyway. Brexit in an unusual case for him as his business may well benefit from us coming out of the EU single market, but it is not typical of our domestic manufacturing at all - the opposite is the case.

Why do you think e.g. Nissan wanted us to stay in? It wasn't some nasty conspiracy! Simple business reasons that are in the interests of all their workers at all levels who stand to lose their jobs. This is not about rich vs poor.

[PRTVR]

blueg33 said:

Indeed, or didn't really understand the impact, or didn't listen to the warnings, or as is usual in this country just expected someone else to sort it out.

No doubt the Government will get the blame as the economy falters, unemployment rises etc

But it is the governments fault, not just this government but the previous government as well, who let manufacturing jobs go who let the economy become dependent on a single area, and not run a balanced economy, as an indication of how out of touch politicians are when the Redcar steel plant closed, the government sent Michael Heseltine along, there was an estimated 4000 job loses, he commented it was a good time to lose your job, I would imagine that there are a lot of areas of the UK really do not care, because they feel they have been ignored for a long time and maybe just maybe things will change now.

[don'tbesilly]

///ajd said:

don'tbesilly said:

///ajd said:

230TE said:

It's certainly one of the strongest protectionist trade blocs in the world.....

....that covers 44% of our exports.


It would be stupid to opt for a worse trade deal with such a protectionist trade bloc, wouldn't it?

It would, so to suggest that will be the outcome of the Leave vote and the subsequent negotiations that take place is in itself foolhardy indeed.

The majority of experts agreed our deal/conditions with the EU would never be as good if we brexited.

This was widely reported before the vote.

Most brexiters took that into account with their vote, yes?

Or do you think our trade deal withe EU could get better if we brexit? Go on say it.

In 1979 the majority of experts stated that the UK should join the ERM, and if we didn't the UK economy would collapse.

It didn't.

In 2016 we have experienced the same type of scaremongering that many experienced back in 1979, so perhaps you might be able to understand some of the doubts people have expressed in their views on 'experts'.

As for most brexiters taking into account what the experts said about a deal/conditions, I can't speak for all of them, there were simply too many, but of the brexiters I know personally, yes they knew what they were voting for and the potential pitfalls, if I asked them would they now change their vote, I don't think any of them would.

For the record no where have I said any trade deals with the EU will be better once negotiated now we have voted to leave, but I don't think for one moment that they will be any worse, I would hope they would be better.

My glass is half full, your glass is a quarter full despite clearly being at the mid point.

[turbobloke]

Presumably there is overlap between these experts and those experts who said we should join the EZ, who didn't see the GFC coming, and who thought we would vote Remain. Ooops. These particular experts sure are inexpert.