Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?
Discussion
vonuber said:
barryrs said:
My theory is that Russia took Crimea as the pro EU government were likely to shine some light on the most likely corrupt deal to extend the lease that was due to expire in the next few years.
Everything else including this talk of NATO expansion is just an excuse for Russia doing what it always does and that's protect it's own interests with force at the expense of its people.
I think you are pretty spot on; including its deliberate destabilising of east Ukraine in an attempt to keep its malign influence over the country and have it as a client state (enabling a few to milk it for billions).Everything else including this talk of NATO expansion is just an excuse for Russia doing what it always does and that's protect it's own interests with force at the expense of its people.
Chlamydia said:
XJ Flyer said:
Bearing in mind that I've lived in that prime ground zero since 1958 through the Cold War to date I think I can handle it.Unlike the recent generations of Americans.Which is why we're in the situation of ending the Cold War and turning it hot.By trying to use the an offensive conventional option to sort the Russians out instead of a defensive nuclear one.With inevitable results..
Since 1958? I'd genuinely assumed you were still in school!vonuber said:
NATO is preparing to hold military 'exercises' in Ukraine and it is supposedly the Russians who are 'goading' NATO.As for the question how far is Russia prepared to go.That is obvious unless the reference to nuclear weapons is just meant as a joke.Octoposse said:
ell no - at the time that Crimea seceded it would be putting it slightly too strongly to assert that Ukraine had a functioning government, let alone a pro EU one . . .
. . . . and the only reason there wasn't still an "anti EU" government was that the democratically elected one matching that description had just been violently overthrown . . . democratically elected thanks to support in Crimea and the pro-Russian East . . . telling them that their votes don't count was never going to go down well. "The people have spoken, the b
ds."
Give it a rest; the only part of the government which could be described as 'overthrown', and even that's a stretch as he did a runner, is the presidency. The rest of the parliament remained in place, where they still are.. . . . and the only reason there wasn't still an "anti EU" government was that the democratically elected one matching that description had just been violently overthrown . . . democratically elected thanks to support in Crimea and the pro-Russian East . . . telling them that their votes don't count was never going to go down well. "The people have spoken, the b
ds."hidetheelephants said:
Give it a rest; the only part of the government which could be described as 'overthrown', and even that's a stretch as he did a runner, is the presidency. The rest of the parliament remained in place, where they still are.
Mea culpa - this is, of course, what peaceful transfers of power look like:
vonuber said:
Paranoid Putin really is trying to gather anti-west support from the Russian population.Cue the Russian 'military exercises' on the Estonian border next week.
XJ Flyer said:
vonuber said:
barryrs said:
My theory is that Russia took Crimea as the pro EU government were likely to shine some light on the most likely corrupt deal to extend the lease that was due to expire in the next few years.
Everything else including this talk of NATO expansion is just an excuse for Russia doing what it always does and that's protect it's own interests with force at the expense of its people.
I think you are pretty spot on; including its deliberate destabilising of east Ukraine in an attempt to keep its malign influence over the country and have it as a client state (enabling a few to milk it for billions).Everything else including this talk of NATO expansion is just an excuse for Russia doing what it always does and that's protect it's own interests with force at the expense of its people.
"44 Ulitsa Arbat this way Gorby ?"
scherzkeks said:
Can't imagine why he "did a runner."
Id suggest because he got away with the following.Dodgy deals regarding gas prices with Russia in exchange for lengthy extensions to the lease in Crimea.
Changes to the constitution to grant himself enormous personal powers.
Rife corruption and theft of Ukraine's wealth (estimated embezzlement of $10 - $15 billion in just 3 years)
Refusal to sign the promised EU Association Agreement; an agreement the government promoted to the Ukrainian people for almost 2 years.
Then did a runner while he was still able; no doubt now living the life of a oligarch with Mr Putin
barryrs said:
Id suggest because he got away with the following.
Dodgy deals regarding gas prices with Russia in exchange for lengthy extensions to the lease in Crimea.
Changes to the constitution to grant himself enormous personal powers.
Rife corruption and theft of Ukraine's wealth (estimated embezzlement of $10 - $15 billion in just 3 years)
Refusal to sign the promised EU Association Agreement; an agreement the government promoted to the Ukrainian people for almost 2 years.
Then did a runner while he was still able; no doubt now living the life of a oligarch with Mr Putin
As if no exploitation will occur under a pro-West government.. Dodgy deals regarding gas prices with Russia in exchange for lengthy extensions to the lease in Crimea.
Changes to the constitution to grant himself enormous personal powers.
Rife corruption and theft of Ukraine's wealth (estimated embezzlement of $10 - $15 billion in just 3 years)
Refusal to sign the promised EU Association Agreement; an agreement the government promoted to the Ukrainian people for almost 2 years.
Then did a runner while he was still able; no doubt now living the life of a oligarch with Mr Putin
The only point worth discussion (and the only one not written in an entirely vague fashion) is the AA agreement, which was stalled, and initially not outright rejected. The reason it was stalled is that noted extremist Yuila Tymoshenko was to be released from jail as part of the agreement, the rejection of which prompted proposal of a three-way trade deal with Russia and the EU in place of the EU deal.
This resulted in angry Western diplomats and a violent coup in which the West backed unsavory groups to over throw a sitting and democratically elected president. Your hyperbole and vague assertions of suffering, corruption, etc, don't change the facts about how the coup started and was carried out -- an act antithetical to democracy, transparency, and self-determination.
XJ Flyer said:
Assuming any of that relates to any Ukrainian/NATO action directed towards removing the Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine all the signs are that the Russians can't be bothered with a conventional fight with NATO for what they would see as a NATO invasion of Russian turf.They seem to have made it clear that they are willing to cut to the chase in terms of the nuclear option.
nobody will use nuclear option unless losing war becomes inevitable, live with it you probably won't see the mushroom in your lifetime as much as you are calling for itscherzkeks said:
barryrs said:
Id suggest because he got away with the following.
Dodgy deals regarding gas prices with Russia in exchange for lengthy extensions to the lease in Crimea.
Changes to the constitution to grant himself enormous personal powers.
Rife corruption and theft of Ukraine's wealth (estimated embezzlement of $10 - $15 billion in just 3 years)
Refusal to sign the promised EU Association Agreement; an agreement the government promoted to the Ukrainian people for almost 2 years.
Then did a runner while he was still able; no doubt now living the life of a oligarch with Mr Putin
As if no exploitation will occur under a pro-West government.. Dodgy deals regarding gas prices with Russia in exchange for lengthy extensions to the lease in Crimea.
Changes to the constitution to grant himself enormous personal powers.
Rife corruption and theft of Ukraine's wealth (estimated embezzlement of $10 - $15 billion in just 3 years)
Refusal to sign the promised EU Association Agreement; an agreement the government promoted to the Ukrainian people for almost 2 years.
Then did a runner while he was still able; no doubt now living the life of a oligarch with Mr Putin
The only point worth discussion (and the only one not written in an entirely vague fashion) is the AA agreement, which was stalled, and initially not outright rejected. The reason it was stalled is that noted extremist Yuila Tymoshenko was to be released from jail as part of the agreement, the rejection of which prompted proposal of a three-way trade deal with Russia and the EU in place of the EU deal.
This resulted in angry Western diplomats and a violent coup in which the West backed unsavory groups to over throw a sitting and democratically elected president. Your hyperbole and vague assertions of suffering, corruption, etc, don't change the facts about how the coup started and was carried out -- an act antithetical to democracy, transparency, and self-determination.
Was there not a growing protest movement within Ukraine for these reasons.
Im not expert so im genuinely interested in how the actions of the former president can be dismissed so easily.
Also im not sure I agree with your definition of an extremist!
Edited by barryrs on Monday 8th September 14:35
Octoposse said:
hidetheelephants said:
Give it a rest; the only part of the government which could be described as 'overthrown', and even that's a stretch as he did a runner, is the presidency. The rest of the parliament remained in place, where they still are.
Mea culpa - this is, of course, what peaceful transfers of power look like:Looks like things are improving for the Crimeans now Russia is in control
Recent human rights violations in Crimea
Crimean Tatars’ homes are being marked with crosses on their doors. A similar practice took place under Stalin’s rule, leading up to the deportation of 200,000 Crimean Tatars to Central Asia in 1944[1];
Local authorities carry out unjustified passport controls in the streets of Crimean cities[2];
Fearing persecution, Crimean Tatars keep their children home from school;
Crimean Tatars, mainly women and children, are fleeing the region to seek refuge in Western Ukraine or Turkey, although most trains and airplanes are fully booked. They fear retaliation for being pro-Ukrainian[3];
Three of the original organizers of a pro-Ukrainian Crimean movement have stopped their activism, disappeared, and been threatened and forced to leave the region[4];
Journalist Ibrahima Umerova and a cameraman from the Crimean Tatar – run television channel ATR have been taken hostage by unknown armed men in Simferopol on 18 March 2014[5];
A Crimean Tatar man, Reshat Ametov, missing since a protest on March 3rd 2014, has been found dead in Belogorskiy district of Crimea according to ex-head of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People, Mustafa Jemilev. His body reveals marks of torture and physical abuse[6];
Among the few Crimean Tatars who chose not to boycott the March 16th referendum, several were refused to take part to the poll. They saw their passports confiscated or destroyed to be prevented from voting[7];
Crimean civil servants were threatened to lose their job if they decided to boycott the local referendum[8];
http://mic.com/articles/84543/crime...rities-don-t...
Recent human rights violations in Crimea
Crimean Tatars’ homes are being marked with crosses on their doors. A similar practice took place under Stalin’s rule, leading up to the deportation of 200,000 Crimean Tatars to Central Asia in 1944[1];
Local authorities carry out unjustified passport controls in the streets of Crimean cities[2];
Fearing persecution, Crimean Tatars keep their children home from school;
Crimean Tatars, mainly women and children, are fleeing the region to seek refuge in Western Ukraine or Turkey, although most trains and airplanes are fully booked. They fear retaliation for being pro-Ukrainian[3];
Three of the original organizers of a pro-Ukrainian Crimean movement have stopped their activism, disappeared, and been threatened and forced to leave the region[4];
Journalist Ibrahima Umerova and a cameraman from the Crimean Tatar – run television channel ATR have been taken hostage by unknown armed men in Simferopol on 18 March 2014[5];
A Crimean Tatar man, Reshat Ametov, missing since a protest on March 3rd 2014, has been found dead in Belogorskiy district of Crimea according to ex-head of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatar People, Mustafa Jemilev. His body reveals marks of torture and physical abuse[6];
Among the few Crimean Tatars who chose not to boycott the March 16th referendum, several were refused to take part to the poll. They saw their passports confiscated or destroyed to be prevented from voting[7];
Crimean civil servants were threatened to lose their job if they decided to boycott the local referendum[8];
http://mic.com/articles/84543/crime...rities-don-t...
Mojocvh said:
XJ Flyer said:
vonuber said:
barryrs said:
My theory is that Russia took Crimea as the pro EU government were likely to shine some light on the most likely corrupt deal to extend the lease that was due to expire in the next few years.
Everything else including this talk of NATO expansion is just an excuse for Russia doing what it always does and that's protect it's own interests with force at the expense of its people.
I think you are pretty spot on; including its deliberate destabilising of east Ukraine in an attempt to keep its malign influence over the country and have it as a client state (enabling a few to milk it for billions).Everything else including this talk of NATO expansion is just an excuse for Russia doing what it always does and that's protect it's own interests with force at the expense of its people.
"44 Ulitsa Arbat this way Gorby ?"
AreOut said:
XJ Flyer said:
Assuming any of that relates to any Ukrainian/NATO action directed towards removing the Russian forces in Eastern Ukraine all the signs are that the Russians can't be bothered with a conventional fight with NATO for what they would see as a NATO invasion of Russian turf.They seem to have made it clear that they are willing to cut to the chase in terms of the nuclear option.
nobody will use nuclear option unless losing war becomes inevitable, live with it you probably won't see the mushroom in your lifetime as much as you are calling for itThe idea of calling on NATO to back off while there is still time is anything but calling for war.More like the opposite.
Utterly bizarre
Russia reopens criminal cases against Lithuanians who refused to serve in Soviet army
Russia reopens criminal cases against Lithuanians who refused to serve in Soviet army
BNS said:
Russia has reopened 25-year-old cases that may lead to criminal charges against young people who refused to serve in the Soviet army in 1990-1991, shows a request for legal assistance received by the Lithuanian Prosecutor General's Office.
"We have received such request for legal assistance. As the activities, which Russia lists among criminal deeds, is not criminalized in Lithuania, the request for legal assistance will not be processed," Vilma Mažone of the Prosecutor General's Office told BNS.
http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/russi..."We have received such request for legal assistance. As the activities, which Russia lists among criminal deeds, is not criminalized in Lithuania, the request for legal assistance will not be processed," Vilma Mažone of the Prosecutor General's Office told BNS.
BBC News - MH17 disaster: Russians 'controlled BUK missile system'
BBC said:
Russians were operating a BUK missile launcher seen in the area where the Malaysia Airlines passenger jet MH17 was shot down, eyewitnesses have told Panorama.
Distinctive shrapnel damage to the plane points to a fragmentation weapon - such as a BUK - downing the plane.
The Kremlin had previously suggested that the missile was from a Ukrainian fighter jet.
Pro-Russian rebels have denied any possession of a BUK.
However, photographs and videos cast doubt on the claim by the Kremlin and pro-Russian rebels - that they did not have a BUK missile launcher on their territory.
Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.
One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher roll off a low-loader at Snezhnoye, around ten miles from the crash site, at around 13:30 local time (10:30 GMT).
"We just saw it being offloaded and when the BUK started its engine the exhaust smoke filled the whole town square," he said.
'Pure Russian accents'
The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."
"They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said.
In eastern Ukraine, most people speak Russian but the BUK crew did not speak Russian with a local accent.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-29109398Distinctive shrapnel damage to the plane points to a fragmentation weapon - such as a BUK - downing the plane.
The Kremlin had previously suggested that the missile was from a Ukrainian fighter jet.
Pro-Russian rebels have denied any possession of a BUK.
However, photographs and videos cast doubt on the claim by the Kremlin and pro-Russian rebels - that they did not have a BUK missile launcher on their territory.
Three eyewitnesses, all civilians, separately told Panorama that they saw a missile-launcher in rebel-held territory a few hours before the Boeing jet was hit.
One eyewitness saw the missile-launcher roll off a low-loader at Snezhnoye, around ten miles from the crash site, at around 13:30 local time (10:30 GMT).
"We just saw it being offloaded and when the BUK started its engine the exhaust smoke filled the whole town square," he said.
'Pure Russian accents'
The eyewitness told the BBC that the crew struck him as Russian soldiers: "Well-disciplined, unlike the rebels, and not wearing the standard Ukrainian camouflage uniform sported by government and rebel troops alike."
"They had pure Russian accents. They say the letter 'g' differently to us," he said.
In eastern Ukraine, most people speak Russian but the BUK crew did not speak Russian with a local accent.
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