Malaysian Airlines 777 down on Ukraine / Russia Border?

[loafer123]

Perhaps more stringent visa requirements for Russians wanting to visit the EU and UK might be a good idea....

[Octoposse]

scherzkeks said:

barryrs said:

Id suggest because he got away with the following.

Dodgy deals regarding gas prices with Russia in exchange for lengthy extensions to the lease in Crimea.
Changes to the constitution to grant himself enormous personal powers.
Rife corruption and theft of Ukraine's wealth (estimated embezzlement of $10 - $15 billion in just 3 years)
Refusal to sign the promised EU Association Agreement; an agreement the government promoted to the Ukrainian people for almost 2 years.

Then did a runner while he was still able; no doubt now living the life of a oligarch with Mr Putin

As if no exploitation will occur under a pro-West government..

The only point worth discussion (and the only one not written in an entirely vague fashion) is the AA agreement, which was stalled, and initially not outright rejected. The reason it was stalled is that noted extremist Yuila Tymoshenko was to be released from jail as part of the agreement, the rejection of which prompted proposal of a three-way trade deal with Russia and the EU in place of the EU deal.

This resulted in angry Western diplomats and a violent coup in which the West backed unsavory groups to over throw a sitting and democratically elected president. Your hyperbole and vague assertions of suffering, corruption, etc, don't change the facts about how the coup started and was carried out -- an act antithetical to democracy, transparency, and self-determination.

Quite so.

And invariably missed from the anti-Russian narrative is the fact that the rejection of the EU deal was greeted with considerable relief in parts of Ukrainian society - yes, especially in the East. Rightly or wrongly, closer ties with the EU were widely perceived as a threat to employment, wages and living standards.

That's the constituency that was disenfranchised by the coup, the strand of opinion that had elected Yanukovych as President.

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover said:

Utterly bizarre

Russia reopens criminal cases against Lithuanians who refused to serve in Soviet army

BNS said:

Russia has reopened 25-year-old cases that may lead to criminal charges against young people who refused to serve in the Soviet army in 1990-1991, shows a request for legal assistance received by the Lithuanian Prosecutor General's Office.
"We have received such request for legal assistance. As the activities, which Russia lists among criminal deeds, is not criminalized in Lithuania, the request for legal assistance will not be processed," Vilma Mažone of the Prosecutor General's Office told BNS.

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/russi...

This seems to confirm my view of the situation.Except that Putin is just the public face of a policy that has obviously been drawn up amongst the Russian leadership.

In which case we need a proper Cold War type leader like Kennedy,using a proper Cold War type strategy,based on the nuclear deterrent,to answer that proper Cold War type threat.

Not a post Cold War leader like Bush or Obama using a post Cold War one,that's based on NATO taking on conventional commitments that it can't hope to meet and which at best is just adding to the the problems not solving them .

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04j2pjj/panorama-pu...

27.00 -

Edited by XJ Flyer on Monday 8th September 22:58

[Mojocvh]

skyrover said:

Utterly bizarre

Russia reopens criminal cases against Lithuanians who refused to serve in Soviet army

BNS said:

Russia has reopened 25-year-old cases that may lead to criminal charges against young people who refused to serve in the Soviet army in 1990-1991, shows a request for legal assistance received by the Lithuanian Prosecutor General's Office.
"We have received such request for legal assistance. As the activities, which Russia lists among criminal deeds, is not criminalized in Lithuania, the request for legal assistance will not be processed," Vilma Mažone of the Prosecutor General's Office told BNS.

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/russi...

Now this posturing IS serious.

[XJ Flyer]

Mojocvh said:

skyrover said:

Utterly bizarre

Russia reopens criminal cases against Lithuanians who refused to serve in Soviet army

BNS said:

Russia has reopened 25-year-old cases that may lead to criminal charges against young people who refused to serve in the Soviet army in 1990-1991, shows a request for legal assistance received by the Lithuanian Prosecutor General's Office.
"We have received such request for legal assistance. As the activities, which Russia lists among criminal deeds, is not criminalized in Lithuania, the request for legal assistance will not be processed," Vilma Mažone of the Prosecutor General's Office told BNS.

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/russi...

Now this posturing IS serious.

Possibly looking for reasons,however ridiculous,that can be sold to the Russian population,to start re taking control of previously given up soviet/WP territory.Ironically the start of WW3 might depend on what happens on the Polish borders.The planned NATO exercises in Ukraine,if not called off,might just be the tipping point regarding that.

[furrywoolyhatuk]

Did anyone see the panorama programme last night? If not worth watching on iplayer.

[jmorgan]

Yeah, that bloke has to be careful confronting Putin. People have accidents when they try that for some reason.

[Cobnapint]

Mojocvh said:

skyrover said:

Utterly bizarre

Russia reopens criminal cases against Lithuanians who refused to serve in Soviet army

BNS said:

Russia has reopened 25-year-old cases that may lead to criminal charges against young people who refused to serve in the Soviet army in 1990-1991, shows a request for legal assistance received by the Lithuanian Prosecutor General's Office.
"We have received such request for legal assistance. As the activities, which Russia lists among criminal deeds, is not criminalized in Lithuania, the request for legal assistance will not be processed," Vilma Mažone of the Prosecutor General's Office told BNS.

http://en.delfi.lt/lithuania/foreign-affairs/russi...

Now this posturing IS serious.

Putin is starting to stir the st all the way down the Eastern edge of Europe. First Ukraine, then Estonia (the arrest of a supposed spy, then paraded on Russian TV), and now this. What's he up to?

[skyrover]

Bulgaria has decided to reclassify Russia as a "threat" and will increase defence spending accordingly

I found this quote interesting

Rosen Plevneliev said:

Last April, Plevneliev said Russian reconnaissance and transport planes were frequently flying along his country’s Eastern aerial border. This, he said, caused Bulgaria’s MIG fighter jets to intercept such flights “two or three times a week”. Before the Crimea crisis, such interceptions were extremely rare.

Bulgarian fighter jets are Soviet-made, and can be maintained only by Russia. Plevneliev said he suspected Russia wanted to exhaust the MIGs' operational life by speeding up their maintenance.

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/off...

Edited by skyrover on Tuesday 9th September 15:34

[petrolsniffer]

skyrover said:

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/global-europe/off...

Yes force them to buy nato hardware! great tactics from russia!

[Cobnapint]

So, back to the subject matter of the thread, the report into the shooting down of MH17 has found that....!.......?.......the plane was downed by a large number of high energy objects.

Didn't we all know that from about day 2...?

[alfaman]

Cobnapint said:

Putin is starting to stir the st all the way down the Eastern edge of Europe. First Ukraine, then Estonia (the arrest of a supposed spy, then paraded on Russian TV), and now this. What's he up to?

Trying to stir up trouble to create more excuses to invade more counties "to protect Russians" ?

[alfaman]

jmorgan said:

Yeah, that bloke has to be careful confronting Putin. People have accidents when they try that for some reason.

Would sir like earl grey, Assam, or Polonium-breakfast tea?

Edited by alfaman on Tuesday 9th September 09:35

[XJ Flyer]

skyrover][b said:

Belarus has decided to reclassify Russia as a "threat"

Since when.It would be interesting to see any actual confirmation of that.

http://belarusdigest.com/story/russia-reviews-mili...

Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 9th September 14:03

Edited by XJ Flyer on Tuesday 9th September 15:29

[XJ Flyer]

furrywoolyhatuk said:

Did anyone see the panorama programme last night? If not worth watching on iplayer.

I've posted the link previously.Mostly typical biased western propaganda but the last few minutes are the relevant and most important bit.In which case meeting that threat by pushing conventional NATO forces into eastern Europe let alone Ukraine is the totally wrong way of trying to solve the problem.

[XJ Flyer]

Cobnapint said:

Putin is starting to stir the st all the way down the Eastern edge of Europe. First Ukraine, then Estonia (the arrest of a supposed spy, then paraded on Russian TV), and now this. What's he up to?

It's not a case of what's 'he' up to it's what is 'Russia' up to.It seems obvious that the mission is preferably to re build the Soviet Union which is obviously impossible.So plan B is to at least kick NATO out of the ex Soviet territories and most definitely keep it out of eastern Ukraine.We are only seeing the first tentative steps in that plan.It all now depends on what NATO wants to do in answer to that which will determine wether the Cold War turns ( very ) hot or stays Cold.

[jmorgan]

alfaman said:

jmorgan said:

Yeah, that bloke has to be careful confronting Putin. People have accidents when they try that for some reason.

Would sir like earl grey, Assam, or Polonium-breakfast tea?

Edited by alfaman on Tuesday 9th September 09:35

You have to wonder when the head diplomat will get a summons to the Russian head of naughty stuff in Moscow.

Tea Mr ambassador?

No thanks, just ate.

[loafer123]

My guess is that they'll ban planes over Russian airspace, the RoW will put in place stringent visa requirements and it will take about 2 weeks before Putin is forced out by the Oligarchs.

[jmorgan]

Will Putin put measures in place his people will see and suffer from or rather how will he put them in such a way he will look the wronged party.

[petrolsniffer]

https://news.vice.com/article/russia-threatens-to-...

'Russia Threatens to Bankrupt Western Airlines by Closing Its Airspace'

oh dear

Edited by petrolsniffer on Wednesday 10th September 11:52