Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
FWDRacer said:
cardigankid said:
The reality here is that we have all had a remarkably close shave. 40 years ago a result of 45/55 against independence would have been inconceivable. A continuation of that trend is only going to lead to one place. Darling fought a poor campaign, The Yes campaign was far better. To lose by such a narrow margin when there are so many unknowns, such close relations with the rest of the UK and so many serious problems with independence is not a hammering. This is a remarkable success for the SNP. It should be a wake up call for Westminster.
Devolution of more powers to Scotland will only guarantee another referendum in 15-20 years. What we need now is leadership for the whole of the UK. We need to be together, British, not fragmented and certainly not sniping at each other.. Parliament has to engage with everyone - Scotland, Wales, NI, North West, North East, South West, everywhere. To fail to do that will guarantee both that there will be a next time, and that the next time the Nats will win.
Absolutely. Nail. Head. Hit. Westminster doesn't even speak for the West midlands, let alone West Lothian. The change in the way the UK is administrated needs to be the outcome of this, and Scotland need to be acknowledged for acting as a catalyst, in what I hope will be a sea change.Devolution of more powers to Scotland will only guarantee another referendum in 15-20 years. What we need now is leadership for the whole of the UK. We need to be together, British, not fragmented and certainly not sniping at each other.. Parliament has to engage with everyone - Scotland, Wales, NI, North West, North East, South West, everywhere. To fail to do that will guarantee both that there will be a next time, and that the next time the Nats will win.
The entire UK will benefit from this result and hopefully gain some real regional control. Look at countries like Germany or Sweden where secondary cities are all flourishing, in the UK London is constantly performing in isolation as a special case bucking most of the negative UK trends.
This referendum has been a wake up call for politicians because it shows how out of touch they have become with the country as a whole.
CAPP0 said:
Genuine question.
Regarding the West Lothian issue, why is it not as simple as:
"Until, or unless, English MPs get a vote on matters tabled in Holyrood (and the other regional assemblies, for that matter), no MPs from other countries in the Union may vote on matters affecting only England"
Why is that such a big, difficult question. other than for historic reasons? We don't have an English parliament (should we??) so how else can English issues be agreed?
My understanding of the issue is that as you say it "should" be as simple as that. However you can't get the parties to agree to that as many Labour votes wouldn't hold a majority if you remove those MP's...so nothing would get done. Regarding the West Lothian issue, why is it not as simple as:
"Until, or unless, English MPs get a vote on matters tabled in Holyrood (and the other regional assemblies, for that matter), no MPs from other countries in the Union may vote on matters affecting only England"
Why is that such a big, difficult question. other than for historic reasons? We don't have an English parliament (should we??) so how else can English issues be agreed?
I could be very wrong though.
McWigglebum4th said:
So do we start a new thread for the riots tonight or shall we keep this one going?
I figure those who care enough to riot probably spent all night masturbating furiously about their glorious new country. Followed by the usual self loathing now it's just the cleaning up to be done. With the result being they are a bit knackered and will sleep tonight.Cobnapint said:
Just to put things in perspective - the No's have won by just over 4 Wembley stadium fulls. That's not alot.
Not the most important post to pick up on, but consider what you have just posted.383,937 'more' voted No.
Now consider what type of voter that is voting No.
Now consider what their likely contribution is to the economy.
I'd estimate over the course of a year they could be worth anything up to £1 billion.
KarlMac said:
worsy said:
tin foil hat on facebook said:
I always felt confident Yes could win this referendum. HOWEVER, I also always warned of the huge dangers posed by the immensely powerful anti-democratic forces ranged against us. The Tory Party, the New Labour Party (with its criminal record for electoral fraud), Big Business, Big Bureaucracy, the British State Broadcasting Corporation (BSBC), Big Media, and last but by no means least MI5 and all the other "secret" agencies of the British State and their many thousands of employees prepared to stop at nothing in order to serve and preserve the State which pays their salaries.
It is now beginning to look like these anti-democratic forces may have somehow managed to turn what I suspect was in fact a YES win into the fraudulent appearance of a win for No. It may be some time before we can get an investigation of exactly how this was done. It may be years before we find out all the details of how the crime was committed. But that's no reason to accept things on their terms. Anybody who thinks we're going to say "Well done, old boy" to David Cameron & co has another think coming.
<snip>stuff about Nixon vs Jack Kennedy & Gore vs Bush</snip>
So even if Alex Salmond thought the referendum had been rigged in favour of NO, he might have to think very carefully about the personal and political danger in saying so.
But there'll be no such hesitation from me: this alleged "result" stinks. This corruption stinks to high heaven.
Do not blame ordinary No voters for this.
Do not blame any of your family, or neighbours, or workmates, who may have voted No.
It's unfortunate they were taken in by the lies and the fear-mongering of professional liars, but the vote-rigging is not their fault.
Do not blame English folk, or any other minority group for this.
Most of them voted Yes.
Blame the corrupt professional politicians of the Tory Party, the New Labour Party (with its criminal record for electoral fraud), Big Business, Big Bureaucracy, the British State Broadcasting Corporation (BSBC), Big Media, and, last but by no means least, MI5 and all the other "secret" agencies of the British State and their many thousands of employees.
Do not act violently; but do not accept the fraud which has been imposed on us either. Do not give the BritNats, who think they've won, the satisfaction of accepting that. Tell the world that the maggots who feed upon the decaying corpse of the British Empire may have, by underhand means, gained a little more time before the final dissolution of their State; but that's all they have gained.
They have not won. The fight continues, and we will win.
So far, all this is just my personal view. But I'm confident many others will sympathise with what I'm putting forward. For example, there's a delegate conference of the Radical Independence Campaign a week on Saturday. I would be very surprised if this view is not discussed.
It is now beginning to look like these anti-democratic forces may have somehow managed to turn what I suspect was in fact a YES win into the fraudulent appearance of a win for No. It may be some time before we can get an investigation of exactly how this was done. It may be years before we find out all the details of how the crime was committed. But that's no reason to accept things on their terms. Anybody who thinks we're going to say "Well done, old boy" to David Cameron & co has another think coming.
<snip>stuff about Nixon vs Jack Kennedy & Gore vs Bush</snip>
So even if Alex Salmond thought the referendum had been rigged in favour of NO, he might have to think very carefully about the personal and political danger in saying so.
But there'll be no such hesitation from me: this alleged "result" stinks. This corruption stinks to high heaven.
Do not blame ordinary No voters for this.
Do not blame any of your family, or neighbours, or workmates, who may have voted No.
It's unfortunate they were taken in by the lies and the fear-mongering of professional liars, but the vote-rigging is not their fault.
Do not blame English folk, or any other minority group for this.
Most of them voted Yes.
Blame the corrupt professional politicians of the Tory Party, the New Labour Party (with its criminal record for electoral fraud), Big Business, Big Bureaucracy, the British State Broadcasting Corporation (BSBC), Big Media, and, last but by no means least, MI5 and all the other "secret" agencies of the British State and their many thousands of employees.
Do not act violently; but do not accept the fraud which has been imposed on us either. Do not give the BritNats, who think they've won, the satisfaction of accepting that. Tell the world that the maggots who feed upon the decaying corpse of the British Empire may have, by underhand means, gained a little more time before the final dissolution of their State; but that's all they have gained.
They have not won. The fight continues, and we will win.
So far, all this is just my personal view. But I'm confident many others will sympathise with what I'm putting forward. For example, there's a delegate conference of the Radical Independence Campaign a week on Saturday. I would be very surprised if this view is not discussed.
I can't even...
Amazing.
You realise we'll have to listen to this for decades?
but do they not realise that our lizard overlords don't care about borders.
rumpelstiltskin said:
Result was never going to be any different,Edinburgh full of Anglified Scots posh knob-ends and Aberdeen full of pople who've battered their heads off granite a bit too often while ofcourse reeking of fish.Good old Glasgae thou,never ever change,true Scots city through and through.Too many chuffing foreigners in the country now anyway to care where Scotland goes.Nice to hear the 'Jock' term showing it's pretty head again on this thread,ignorant b
ds.
You know when you left school and didn't get any GSCE's whilst lots of other people did?ds.That's because you are thicker than them. The result of this intellectual imbalance is that when one person thinks one thing and you think something completely different then they are probably right. As soon as you accept this you will be much happier and stop being angry at everyone else for your own failings (and alcoholism)
graphene said:
not to mention those you who I suspect might be referring to "chuffing foreigners" who were born in Scotland? How do you know it was not those people who swung (against the national trend) Glasgow's vote to Yes?
Indeed - the unspoken assumption seems to be that people originally from rUK or beyond would be "No" voters - and only true Scots would vote "Yes"From what I have seen - this assumption may be very wide of the mark. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Yes vote was boosted significantly by the votes of 'non-scots' based on comments/opinions I have seen from non Scottish nationals.
blindswelledrat said:
rumpelstiltskin said:
Result was never going to be any different,Edinburgh full of Anglified Scots posh knob-ends and Aberdeen full of pople who've battered their heads off granite a bit too often while ofcourse reeking of fish.Good old Glasgae thou,never ever change,true Scots city through and through.Too many chuffing foreigners in the country now anyway to care where Scotland goes.Nice to hear the 'Jock' term showing it's pretty head again on this thread,ignorant bds.
You know when you left school and didn't get any GSCE's whilst lots of other people did?ds.That's because you are thicker than them. The result of this intellectual imbalance is that when one person thinks one thing and you think something completely different then they are probably right. As soon as you accept this you will be much happier and stop being angry at everyone else for your own failings (and alcoholism)
rumpelstiltskin said:
Result was never going to be any different,Edinburgh full of Anglified Scots posh knob-ends and Aberdeen full of pople who've battered their heads off granite a bit too often while ofcourse reeking of fish.Good old Glasgae thou,never ever change,true Scots city through and through.Too many chuffing foreigners in the country now anyway to care where Scotland goes.Nice to hear the 'Jock' term showing it's pretty head again on this thread,ignorant bds.
Calm down dear, its just a commercialds.Well I for one was actually almost emotional in the car listening to Cameron's speech this morning.
I'm not Scottish but did live up there for a large part of my adult formative years, enjoyed most of my time up there and still have family living there. All 3 of my children were born in Scotland.
I was completely split on the independence question and could see win-wins and losses-losses on both sides of the border whichever way the vote went.
But for me though, seeing how the YES campaign was run, I must say that I'm glad the silent, decent majority of Scots have not allowed themselves to be intimidated into a rash decision.
I think Scotland should be given extra powers, but only if extra responsibilities and accountability goes with it. Scotland can't expect any sympathy and support if it can't balance it's books in the future with the new powers, it can't expect the UK to bale it out in 10 years when it runs out of money as it's socialist experiment progresses. These rules need to be embedded in the new powers.
And the rest of the UK , and the English particularly must be given the same powers otherwise this inequality in the union , which Salmond has now shone a spotlight on, will continue to fester and the inevitable consequence of this will be a similar nationalistic 'uprising' in England as has been seen in Scotland.
And none of us want that.
I'm not Scottish but did live up there for a large part of my adult formative years, enjoyed most of my time up there and still have family living there. All 3 of my children were born in Scotland.
I was completely split on the independence question and could see win-wins and losses-losses on both sides of the border whichever way the vote went.
But for me though, seeing how the YES campaign was run, I must say that I'm glad the silent, decent majority of Scots have not allowed themselves to be intimidated into a rash decision.
I think Scotland should be given extra powers, but only if extra responsibilities and accountability goes with it. Scotland can't expect any sympathy and support if it can't balance it's books in the future with the new powers, it can't expect the UK to bale it out in 10 years when it runs out of money as it's socialist experiment progresses. These rules need to be embedded in the new powers.
And the rest of the UK , and the English particularly must be given the same powers otherwise this inequality in the union , which Salmond has now shone a spotlight on, will continue to fester and the inevitable consequence of this will be a similar nationalistic 'uprising' in England as has been seen in Scotland.
And none of us want that.
Bit like contemplating an overtaking manoeuvre on a blind bend. The desire to press on is tempered with the realisation that something just might be coming the other way and it's simply not worth the risk. Scotland has voted for common sense but the divisions both north and south of the border aren't going to go away overnight...
rumpelstiltskin said:
Result was never going to be any different,Edinburgh full of Anglified Scots posh knob-ends and Aberdeen full of pople who've battered their heads off granite a bit too often while ofcourse reeking of fish.Good old Glasgae thou,never ever change,true Scots city through and through.Too many chuffing foreigners in the country now anyway to care where Scotland goes.Nice to hear the 'Jock' term showing it's pretty head again on this thread,ignorant bds.
ds.Cobnapint said:
Is it fk significant. 25% would be significant. 10% is very close.
Don't think this has gone away, it hasn't. Salmond said in his speech - Scotland has voted to stay with the union - AT THIS STAGE!
Expect to go through the same st in about 15-20 years time.
And let the whining begin in earnest!k significant. 25% would be significant. 10% is very close.Don't think this has gone away, it hasn't. Salmond said in his speech - Scotland has voted to stay with the union - AT THIS STAGE!
Expect to go through the same s
t in about 15-20 years time.I suppose had the vote gone the other way by even 1 vote, you two would have been saying how unconvincing the democratic process was and how we should hold another vote in 15-20yrs' time?
If you, and people like Owen Jones, dislike the idea of a democratic vote (85% turnout is massive, and if you don't think it is and that 10% is not a decent margin, go and look at general election results) and the UK so much, why don't you just f
k off and leave everyone else to get on with it? Personally I wanted a Yes vote - I cannot see our politicians organising a truly fair "federal UK", and whatever is agreed it won't be enough for whinging f
kers like you two. The only downside to a No vote would have been having to bail Scotland out in 10yrs' time. But at least listening to buckfast fuelled morons makes the rest of us realise life could be worse!
rumpelstiltskin said:
Result was never going to be any different,Edinburgh full of Anglified Scots posh knob-ends and Aberdeen full of pople who've battered their heads off granite a bit too often while ofcourse reeking of fish.Good old Glasgae thou,never ever change,true Scots city through and through.Too many chuffing foreigners in the country now anyway to care where Scotland goes.Nice to hear the 'Jock' term showing it's pretty head again on this thread,ignorant bds.
Nothing beats the warm glow of beating a bad loser.ds.graphene said:
rumpelstiltskin said:
Result was never going to be any different,Edinburgh full of Anglified Scots posh knob-ends and Aberdeen full of pople who've battered their heads off granite a bit too often while ofcourse reeking of fish.Good old Glasgae thou,never ever change,true Scots city through and through.Too many chuffing foreigners in the country now anyway to care where Scotland goes.Nice to hear the 'Jock' term showing it's pretty head again on this thread,ignorant bds.
Is it true that Glasgow, your "true Scots city", has a larger number of foreign-born residents that most other areas, not to mention those you who I suspect might be referring to "chuffing foreigners" who were born in Scotland? How do you know it was not those people who swung (against the national trend) Glasgow's vote to Yes?ds.Glasgow voted yes because there is much higher percentage of immigrants and foreigners and importantly, unemployed people.
Edinburgh and the rest of Scotland voted NO because like 'true Scots' they understand the value of the Union, hard work and having a job.
blindswelledrat said:
rumpelstiltskin said:
Result was never going to be any different,Edinburgh full of Anglified Scots posh knob-ends and Aberdeen full of pople who've battered their heads off granite a bit too often while ofcourse reeking of fish.Good old Glasgae thou,never ever change,true Scots city through and through.Too many chuffing foreigners in the country now anyway to care where Scotland goes.Nice to hear the 'Jock' term showing it's pretty head again on this thread,ignorant bds.
You know when you left school and didn't get any GSCE's whilst lots of other people did?ds.That's because you are thicker than them. The result of this intellectual imbalance is that when one person thinks one thing and you think something completely different then they are probably right. As soon as you accept this you will be much happier and stop being angry at everyone else for your own failings (and alcoholism)
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