This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

[superlightr]

Transmitter Man said:

Correct.

They had to fire up the old General Electric oil fired power station while the new one was rebuilt.

Limassol was blacked out with the explosion plus a number of deaths.

Ammo was stored as you say out in the sun at the Cyprus naval base next door to the power station.

http://www.zki.dlr.de/system/files/media/filefield...

can we not store some ammo in Brussels ....

[wc98]

superlightr said:

can we not store some ammo including a couple of small nuclear warheads in Brussels ....

[Mojocvh]

Seen the BBC have parachuted a female reporter, to report on the effect of the greek crisis on the small island economies. She is reporting from the island of Lesbos.

Well, for one I'm glad that my licence fee plan is BANG up to date...

[Emeye]

Andy Zarse said:

Another case of Stockport syndrome...

Stockport Syndrome: Where people tell everyone they live in "South Manchester" when really they live in Stockport.

Usually when someone says they live in "South Manchester", it means they live is a crappy part of Greater Manchester to the South of the city - otherwise they'd say Hale or Wilmslow or wherever it is I can't afford to live.

Anyway, as you were.

[Efbe]

Bodo said:

Scuffers said:

RYH64E said:

The Greeks want to stay in the EU and want to keep the euro, what they don't want to do is reform, but unfortunately for them economic and social reform is the key to future success.

you make it ould like they speak with one voice?

Lot of the Greeks interviewed on TV over the last few days have been the ones pushing for the government to get serious with collecting taxes etc.

That's how their democracy works: what the majority votes for is how it's done. '64E is correct: the majority voted against accepting the Troika's last offer and conditions. It's not like they didn't like the money that was offered; it was the fact that they would need to give up privileges.

On a side note: 35% of the Greeks do productive (within circumstances) work for the rest. 38% didn't bother to take part in the referendum.

I hope you are not trying to link the colours. because that would just be idiotic.

[longshot]

Well, in good old Greece everyone is full of the joys of spring.

On the way to the petrol station I noticed someone had hung a EU flag outside of their house and on one of the dodgy hillside road corners, some orange poles, tape and spray have appeared.
They must be planning on lashing out on some Armco.

I do wonder what real deal is for Greece as opposed to the one we're being told about.

[Fishtigua]

An interesting look at Post-WWII politics and the lack of reform in Greece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/g...

[Bodo]

Fishtigua said:

An interesting look at Post-WWII politics and the lack of reform in Greece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/g...

Good article with an interesting thesis. I wasn't aware that the media in Greece is so homogeneous, and that Greece has no independent welfare system.

His main point though, is that Greece never reformed in a way like Western Europe did after WWII or, I think, Eastern Europe after the dissolution of the USSR. When would Greece have the chance to reform? Certainly not if they continue like they do today.

[Cheese Mechanic]

Scuffers said:

blimey, forgot about that...

reading Wiki on it, how did they not end up in jail?

political independence in the extreme.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelos_Florakis_N...

Likewise, I recall the event, but for some reason never followed up on what actually happened. Crazy

[steveT350C]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/20...

[Derek Smith]

Bodo said:

Fishtigua said:

An interesting look at Post-WWII politics and the lack of reform in Greece.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/g...

Good article with an interesting thesis. I wasn't aware that the media in Greece is so homogeneous, and that Greece has no independent welfare system.

His main point though, is that Greece never reformed in a way like Western Europe did after WWII or, I think, Eastern Europe after the dissolution of the USSR. When would Greece have the chance to reform? Certainly not if they continue like they do today.

It seems odd that the dictatorship of the colonels was not mentioned by the Telegraph. Many feel this was the defining moment for the Greeks. Why should they bother when a rampant USA could support a horrendous dictatorship over the rights, desires, and needs of the electorate?

The ultra 'right wing'* stance of the military, banning miniskirts, unions and long hair, all seen as leftist and liable to lead to communism, was initially viewed as quite silly in the west. There were a few demonstrations against it at first but not too many. Then the full criminality of the regime came slowly to light, even in a largely supportive press in this country.

In the end, it was more or less 'overthrown' but those who assumed charge became more or less the same.

The move was seen by many in this country as imperialistic. That said, NATO was regarded as an essential bulwark against Russian expansionism and a few Greeks being killed, imprisoned or lost was thought to be a reasonable price to pay.

Odd the DT ignored that. It was quite well known.

I don't know whether it did have a major effect on the Greek psyche but at a guess, 7 years of people being pulled off the street and never seen again, of money dropping in value, of saving raided, of food problems, of riots - viscioulsy put down, of secret police, is unlikely to leave you the same as when you started.

• Despite right wing being the normal tag for the military junta, it should not be described as such in a political sense. That accords them too much dignity. The colonels, bless 'em, were out for all they could get for themselves. In this they were supported by promises of help, money and special treatment from the agents of a country (probably more behind it though) that was right wing.

Reap the whirlwind.

[jimmybobby]

Predictable. The only real issue for me is it hasnt gone down quite the way I expected. I fully expect Tsipras gone within 12-24months. I cannot understand why when given the mandate he was given by the Greek people and with such a strong hand he has capitulated and given the EU what they wanted and I strongly suspect the Greeks wont understand either and he will be punished for it.

[Derek Smith]

jimmybobby said:

Predictable. The only real issue for me is it hasnt gone down quite the way I expected. I fully expect Tsipras gone within 12-24months. I cannot understand why when given the mandate he was given by the Greek people and with such a strong hand he has capitulated and given the EU what they wanted and I strongly suspect the Greeks wont understand either and he will be punished for it.

The change of heart of Tsipras has surprised me as well. It is not going as I anticipated, apart from the capitulation of the EZ though.

[Andy Zarse]

Derek Smith said:

jimmybobby said:

Predictable. The only real issue for me is it hasnt gone down quite the way I expected. I fully expect Tsipras gone within 12-24months. I cannot understand why when given the mandate he was given by the Greek people and with such a strong hand he has capitulated and given the EU what they wanted and I strongly suspect the Greeks wont understand either and he will be punished for it.

The change of heart of Tsipras has surprised me as well. It is not going as I anticipated, apart from the capitulation of the EZ though.

Tzippy is political toast...

I think you mean goodbye!

[jimmybobby]

Andy Zarse said:

Derek Smith said:

jimmybobby said:

Predictable. The only real issue for me is it hasnt gone down quite the way I expected. I fully expect Tsipras gone within 12-24months. I cannot understand why when given the mandate he was given by the Greek people and with such a strong hand he has capitulated and given the EU what they wanted and I strongly suspect the Greeks wont understand either and he will be punished for it.

The change of heart of Tsipras has surprised me as well. It is not going as I anticipated, apart from the capitulation of the EZ though.

Tzippy is political toast...

I think you mean goodbye!

The only question is how long. It could be within weeks or he could try hang on for a period and then find it unsustainable. The stupid thing in all this is this is going to have a far far worse outcome for Greece's lenders than if Tsipras had stuck to his demands and mandate. A lot of people are going to lose everything over this.

Worst case the EU would have lost Greece (not a bad thing for al involved). There is no way on gods green earth Greece will be able to stick to their debt repayment plan. That was the primary objective for Greece originally it was to stop the stupid quick repayment policy and spread the debt restructuring over 20-25 years + almost like a mortgage.

Stipulating repayment of 85 billion in three years is a dead duck and any moron should be able to see it.

[Rovinghawk]

jimmybobby said:

I cannot understand why when given the mandate he was given by the Greek people and with such a strong hand he has capitulated and given the EU what they wanted and I strongly suspect the Greeks wont understand either and he will be punished for it.

Mandate- "We want to borrow more & pay nothing back". Surely that's within the lender's control, not the borrower's?

Strong hand- banks closed, strict withdrawal limits, mass unemployment, impending shortages........................

[Ridgemont]

jimmybobby said:

The only question is how long. It could be within weeks or he could try hang on for a period and then find it unsustainable. The stupid thing in all this is this is going to have a far far worse outcome for Greece's lenders than if Tsipras had stuck to his demands and mandate. A lot of people are going to lose everything over this.

Worst case the EU would have lost Greece (not a bad thing for al involved). There is no way on gods green earth Greece will be able to stick to their debt repayment plan. That was the primary objective for Greece originally it was to stop the stupid quick repayment policy and spread the debt restructuring over 20-25 years + almost like a mortgage.

Stipulating repayment of 85 billion in three years is a dead duck and any moron should be able to see it.

This 'agreement' needs to be passed by the Greek Parliament. If somehow Tsipras somehow manages to weasel this past his Syriza colleagues I would imagine Golden Dawn will be quids in come the next election. Well played EU. Well played.

[jimmybobby]

Rovinghawk said:

jimmybobby said:

I cannot understand why when given the mandate he was given by the Greek people and with such a strong hand he has capitulated and given the EU what they wanted and I strongly suspect the Greeks wont understand either and he will be punished for it.

Mandate- "We want to borrow more & pay nothing back". Surely that's within the lender's control, not the borrower's?

Strong hand- banks closed, strict withdrawal limits, mass unemployment, impending shortages........................

My understanding as ever is that they did not ask to borrow more in unreasonable terms. They were loaned something like 200 billion euros of which they repaid 175 billion. Mostly the money borrowed was used to pay itself off as the repayment terms were so poor. This meant that the money which was meant to be used to give them a lifeline to start trying to turn the country around wasn't used for that purpose.

What they were asking for was to borrow more but on more favourable terms than previously to make it easier to manage the debt restructuring and repayment.

Clearly this has not happened. Three years to repay 85 billion. I think last hope now is that his government refuse to agree to the new bailout proposals.

[Andy Zarse]

jimmybobby said:

I think last hope now is that the government drug addict refuses to agree to the new bailout heroin dealer's proposals.

EFA

[Derek Smith]

jimmybobby said:

Stipulating repayment of 85 billion in three years is a dead duck and any moron should be able to see it.

Indeed. So this is a fudge. A lever perhaps, but I'm with you, there's little chance this will float.

This is not so much the best the Greeks could have hoped for, but something they would not have even hoped for.