War with Russia
Discussion
skyrover said:
Russia backing off from Ukraine?
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/15/uk-ukrain...
The Ruble is having a very hard time on the markets... crashed from 94 to 103 against the British Pound in the space of 30 minutes tonight.
It is now the worst performing currency of 2014
You sure it was over 30 mins?http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/12/15/uk-ukrain...
The Ruble is having a very hard time on the markets... crashed from 94 to 103 against the British Pound in the space of 30 minutes tonight.
It is now the worst performing currency of 2014
Edited by skyrover on Monday 15th December 19:21
QuantumTokoloshi said:
The question is, has Russian foreign policy been the problem or have other geopolitical players also played a substantial part in pushing and then punishing Russia for not complying ? I would guess the answer sits somewhere in the middle.
I do wonder how the USA would react if Russia passed a bill, as the US did recently for Ukraine, to overtly begin supplying Mexican nationalists with military aid or how the EU would react if Russia offered the same support to Syriza in Greece, Serbian nationalists or ETA for example.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-gooden...
It is dangerous to back a nervous animal into a corner, they tend to react badly. Squeeze Russia too hard and the law of unintended consequences begins to dominate.
Russia didn't need to be backed into a corner in order to support PIRA, SWAPO, Shining Path and a very long list of other proxies in the past. The only thing that would surprise me would be if they had actually stopped doing so for any reason other than lack of cash in the meantime. I do wonder how the USA would react if Russia passed a bill, as the US did recently for Ukraine, to overtly begin supplying Mexican nationalists with military aid or how the EU would react if Russia offered the same support to Syriza in Greece, Serbian nationalists or ETA for example.
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/patrick-gooden...
It is dangerous to back a nervous animal into a corner, they tend to react badly. Squeeze Russia too hard and the law of unintended consequences begins to dominate.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 15th December 14:20
IroningMan said:
Russia didn't need to be backed into a corner in order to support PIRA, SWAPO, Shining Path and a very long list of other proxies in the past. The only thing that would surprise me would be if they had actually stopped doing so for any reason other than lack of cash in the meantime.
That was not Russia, that was the USSR, just like NATO is not the USA.Russia is not a minor world player, it is merely following the script of the Western nations, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, this is just the last 10 years, and none of these nations bordered the UK or the USA.
I wonder how the US would react to Russia supporting the overthrown of the democratic Mexican government and then supplying the new government with heavy weapons ? Or Russia actively supporting the PIRA to overthrow the Northern Ireland assembly, and then overtly supplying them with heavy arms ?
Brinkmanship with a nuclear colossus, who still has substantial conventional capability and in the middle of winter when they supply Europe with natural gas, is a very high risk strategy with an increasing probability of all sorts of nasty outcomes.
Compromise is the only sane option. If you push to hard against a rickety wall, risks the wall falling on you.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
That was not Russia, that was the USSR, just like NATO is not the USA.
Russia is not a minor world player, it is merely following the script of the Western nations, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, this is just the last 10 years, and none of these nations bordered the UK or the USA.
I wonder how the US would react to Russia supporting the overthrown of the democratic Mexican government and then supplying the new government with heavy weapons ? Or Russia actively supporting the PIRA to overthrow the Northern Ireland assembly, and then overtly supplying them with heavy arms ?
Brinkmanship with a nuclear colossus, who still has substantial conventional capability and in the middle of winter when they supply Europe with natural gas, is a very high risk strategy with an increasing probability of all sorts of nasty outcomes.
Compromise is the only sane option. If you push to hard against a rickety wall, risks the wall falling on you.
The USSR not Russia? Do be brief. I see we're still in the JCR on this thread, so I'll leave you to it.Russia is not a minor world player, it is merely following the script of the Western nations, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, this is just the last 10 years, and none of these nations bordered the UK or the USA.
I wonder how the US would react to Russia supporting the overthrown of the democratic Mexican government and then supplying the new government with heavy weapons ? Or Russia actively supporting the PIRA to overthrow the Northern Ireland assembly, and then overtly supplying them with heavy arms ?
Brinkmanship with a nuclear colossus, who still has substantial conventional capability and in the middle of winter when they supply Europe with natural gas, is a very high risk strategy with an increasing probability of all sorts of nasty outcomes.
Compromise is the only sane option. If you push to hard against a rickety wall, risks the wall falling on you.
Transmitter Man said:
I suggested earlier that when oil his $60 a can Pukin will start thinking about new underwear.
I hope it hit's $40 and at each $20 drop he is kindly requested to pull his 'Russian' passport holding thugs back home to Moscow.
Phil
you do realise he can destroy half the world(UK being the primary target) if he decides so, don't you?!I hope it hit's $40 and at each $20 drop he is kindly requested to pull his 'Russian' passport holding thugs back home to Moscow.
Phil
verallIroningMan said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
That was not Russia, that was the USSR, just like NATO is not the USA.
Russia is not a minor world player, it is merely following the script of the Western nations, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, this is just the last 10 years, and none of these nations bordered the UK or the USA.
I wonder how the US would react to Russia supporting the overthrown of the democratic Mexican government and then supplying the new government with heavy weapons ? Or Russia actively supporting the PIRA to overthrow the Northern Ireland assembly, and then overtly supplying them with heavy arms ?
Brinkmanship with a nuclear colossus, who still has substantial conventional capability and in the middle of winter when they supply Europe with natural gas, is a very high risk strategy with an increasing probability of all sorts of nasty outcomes.
Compromise is the only sane option. If you push to hard against a rickety wall, risks the wall falling on you.
The USSR not Russia? Do be brief. I see we're still in the JCR on this thread, so I'll leave you to it.Russia is not a minor world player, it is merely following the script of the Western nations, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Yemen, this is just the last 10 years, and none of these nations bordered the UK or the USA.
I wonder how the US would react to Russia supporting the overthrown of the democratic Mexican government and then supplying the new government with heavy weapons ? Or Russia actively supporting the PIRA to overthrow the Northern Ireland assembly, and then overtly supplying them with heavy arms ?
Brinkmanship with a nuclear colossus, who still has substantial conventional capability and in the middle of winter when they supply Europe with natural gas, is a very high risk strategy with an increasing probability of all sorts of nasty outcomes.
Compromise is the only sane option. If you push to hard against a rickety wall, risks the wall falling on you.
Did they trade much with the USA any way?
Surely now they have even less reason to export their energy in USD?
From what I can see the Russian people are pretty resilient and happy to stand behind Putin in the face of the USA. From their perspective it's either stand free and modestly, or stand as a subservient credit enabled slave to the US debt machine.
I can see USD following shortly if they keep printing money and their creditors decide to cash in more of their USD!
Dave
Surely now they have even less reason to export their energy in USD?
From what I can see the Russian people are pretty resilient and happy to stand behind Putin in the face of the USA. From their perspective it's either stand free and modestly, or stand as a subservient credit enabled slave to the US debt machine.
I can see USD following shortly if they keep printing money and their creditors decide to cash in more of their USD!
Dave
AreOut said:
you do realise he can destroy half the world(UK being the primary target) if he decides so, don't you?!
Without consequences to Russia?Dear, oh dear, it's all about willy-waving with you guys isn't it?
If only you realised true power comes from the ability to influence others positively. Tackle corruption, set up an independent legal system, allow political plurality, allow freedom of speech and then you have a chance of attracting the foreign investment and know-how that would allow you to take a more prominent role in the World.
As your economy crashes around your ears, can't you see where Putin's deeply stupid
policies have led you? We live in an inter-connected world and if you don't play nicely, you suffer the consequences.
You'd never see the Chinese making this sort of blunder. They always play the long game.
Bluebarge said:
If only you realised true power comes from the ability to influence others positively. Tackle corruption, set up an independent legal system, allow political plurality, allow freedom of speech and then you have a chance of attracting the foreign investment and know-how that would allow you to take a more prominent role in the World.
As your economy crashes around your ears, can't you see where Putin's deeply stupid
policies have led you? We live in an inter-connected world and if you don't play nicely, you suffer the consequences.
And the USA offers all those things?As your economy crashes around your ears, can't you see where Putin's deeply stupid
policies have led you? We live in an inter-connected world and if you don't play nicely, you suffer the consequences.
And their economy is ready to crash around their ears with 20 Trillion USD in debt and their creditors cashing out actively. So much for foreign investments being attracted to them.
Interconnected world in which you don't play nicely? Like the USA bombing everyone just as much as Russia or the USSR ever did?
I won't pretend that Russia has things perfect, but the USA is just another shade of the same grey. They are far from the whiter than white they outwardly suggest.
The only thing that has kept the USA going for the last few decades is their legacy position. And that is about to lose all credibility if this stunt with Russia doesn't go absolutely perfectly to plan... and I don't think it is doing unfortunately for the USA populace.
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
And the USA offers all those things?
And their economy is ready to crash around their ears with 20 Trillion USD in debt and their creditors cashing out actively. So much for foreign investments being attracted to them.
Interconnected world in which you don't play nicely? Like the USA bombing everyone just as much as Russia or the USSR ever did?
I won't pretend that Russia has things perfect, but the USA is just another shade of the same grey. They are far from the whiter than white they outwardly suggest.
The only thing that has kept the USA going for the last few decades is their legacy position. And that is about to lose all credibility if this stunt with Russia doesn't go absolutely perfectly to plan... and I don't think it is doing unfortunately for the USA populace.
Dave
Dave, you view the World through a CPGB-coloured lens. Your views on the World and how economies work are so far from the mark that it is not worth debating with you. No matter what is said you retreat to the same old comfortable mantras that you have dreamt up in your head. If you think there is a moral equivalence between Obama's America and Putin's Russia then you are a lost cause.And their economy is ready to crash around their ears with 20 Trillion USD in debt and their creditors cashing out actively. So much for foreign investments being attracted to them.
Interconnected world in which you don't play nicely? Like the USA bombing everyone just as much as Russia or the USSR ever did?
I won't pretend that Russia has things perfect, but the USA is just another shade of the same grey. They are far from the whiter than white they outwardly suggest.
The only thing that has kept the USA going for the last few decades is their legacy position. And that is about to lose all credibility if this stunt with Russia doesn't go absolutely perfectly to plan... and I don't think it is doing unfortunately for the USA populace.
Dave
As to the US economy, investors will carry on piling in because it is the economic powerhouse of the World, a huge centre of innovation and one of the few safe and dynamic depositories for cash. That is why communist China has so much invested in the US. That is why the US remains the most powerful country in the world. If it chose to, it could repay the debt without difficulty. If it chose not to, the World would sh*t itself. As the old saying goes "Owe the bank a million, you have a problem; owe the bank a billion, the bank has a problem."
Why do people flock to live, work and invest in the US? Because it is democratic, with a free press, clear checks on govt. and with a fair legal system. That makes it a comfortable place to put your money.
Why don't people invest in Russia? Because it has none of those things.
That's why Putin's path for Russia is a dead-end.
But you carry on whistling the "Internationale" if that makes you happy.
Bluebarge said:
Mr Whippy said:
And the USA offers all those things?
And their economy is ready to crash around their ears with 20 Trillion USD in debt and their creditors cashing out actively. So much for foreign investments being attracted to them.
Interconnected world in which you don't play nicely? Like the USA bombing everyone just as much as Russia or the USSR ever did?
I won't pretend that Russia has things perfect, but the USA is just another shade of the same grey. They are far from the whiter than white they outwardly suggest.
The only thing that has kept the USA going for the last few decades is their legacy position. And that is about to lose all credibility if this stunt with Russia doesn't go absolutely perfectly to plan... and I don't think it is doing unfortunately for the USA populace.
Dave
Dave, you view the World through a CPGB-coloured lens. Your views on the World and how economies work are so far from the mark that it is not worth debating with you. No matter what is said you retreat to the same old comfortable mantras that you have dreamt up in your head. If you think there is a moral equivalence between Obama's America and Putin's Russia then you are a lost cause.And their economy is ready to crash around their ears with 20 Trillion USD in debt and their creditors cashing out actively. So much for foreign investments being attracted to them.
Interconnected world in which you don't play nicely? Like the USA bombing everyone just as much as Russia or the USSR ever did?
I won't pretend that Russia has things perfect, but the USA is just another shade of the same grey. They are far from the whiter than white they outwardly suggest.
The only thing that has kept the USA going for the last few decades is their legacy position. And that is about to lose all credibility if this stunt with Russia doesn't go absolutely perfectly to plan... and I don't think it is doing unfortunately for the USA populace.
Dave
As to the US economy, investors will carry on piling in because it is the economic powerhouse of the World, a huge centre of innovation and one of the few safe and dynamic depositories for cash. That is why communist China has so much invested in the US. That is why the US remains the most powerful country in the world. If it chose to, it could repay the debt without difficulty. If it chose not to, the World would sh*t itself. As the old saying goes "Owe the bank a million, you have a problem; owe the bank a billion, the bank has a problem."
Why do people flock to live, work and invest in the US? Because it is democratic, with a free press, clear checks on govt. and with a fair legal system. That makes it a comfortable place to put your money.
Why don't people invest in Russia? Because it has none of those things.
That's why Putin's path for Russia is a dead-end.
But you carry on whistling the "Internationale" if that makes you happy.
Unless rising youth unemployment is 'working', rising sovereign and personal debt is 'working', a widening wealth gap is 'working', a centre of innovation where there is no innovation because it's bad for businesses status quo (think FCC and fibre internets that they've been subsidised to provide) is working?
Democratic? You have two choices which seem to be about the same. And they are both more influenced by lobbyists than the needs of the majority it would seem?
Clear checks on govt, like the CIA who lied to government about torturing people?
A recent study suggests the USA doesn't act so well as a democracy for the majority, and under peer review it seems to be fairly robust.
I'll agree, they're big and mean with a hefty military and a great legacy of economic potency and power... if this were 50 years ago I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.
But today I'm less convinced the USA is out there to make the world a better place for everyone.
I don't support communism, nor do I support Putin. Nor do I support the western democracies we have today which just f
k about doing nothing positive while sapping GDP to have their expensive talking shop gravy trains.I'm just amazed how people can polarise themselves to USA 'good', because Putin is 'bad'
They're both equally bad and stupid. Dragging the security of 'normal' peoples wealth, jobs, livelihoods and pensions left right and centre just so the wealthy elites on both sides can fight over oil pipelines and how many percentage points they can skim over billions or trillions in energy deals.
I just think we need to be both positive and critical about both sides motivations and virtues.
But hey. We live in the west right. That means we have to be pro west. To actually want to have a neutral standpoint that balances sides fairly makes you a clueless communist.
Maybe one day idealism will be something viewed as a virtue, rather than ridiculed because it goes against the stupidity of safe herd mentality.
Bluebarge said:
Without consequences to Russia?
Dear, oh dear, it's all about willy-waving with you guys isn't it?
not about me, I'm not the one pressing the red button, but the fact is Putin aside there might be some fed up general in nuclear command that will initiate the sequenceDear, oh dear, it's all about willy-waving with you guys isn't it?
and if that happens you can hang all those interconnections on your willy and wave them
Mr Whippy said:
But the economies don't work.
Unless rising youth unemployment is 'working', rising sovereign and personal debt is 'working', a widening wealth gap is 'working', a centre of innovation where there is no innovation because it's bad for businesses status quo (think FCC and fibre internets that they've been subsidised to provide) is working?
Democratic? You have two choices which seem to be about the same. And they are both more influenced by lobbyists than the needs of the majority it would seem?
Clear checks on govt, like the CIA who lied to government about torturing people?
A recent study suggests the USA doesn't act so well as a democracy for the majority, and under peer review it seems to be fairly robust.
I'll agree, they're big and mean with a hefty military and a great legacy of economic potency and power... if this were 50 years ago I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.
But today I'm less convinced the USA is out there to make the world a better place for everyone.
I don't support communism, nor do I support Putin. Nor do I support the western democracies we have today which just fk about doing nothing positive while sapping GDP to have their expensive talking shop gravy trains.
I'm just amazed how people can polarise themselves to USA 'good', because Putin is 'bad'
They're both equally bad and stupid. Dragging the security of 'normal' peoples wealth, jobs, livelihoods and pensions left right and centre just so the wealthy elites on both sides can fight over oil pipelines and how many percentage points they can skim over billions or trillions in energy deals.
I just think we need to be both positive and critical about both sides motivations and virtues.
But hey. We live in the west right. That means we have to be pro west. To actually want to have a neutral standpoint that balances sides fairly makes you a clueless communist.
Maybe one day idealism will be something viewed as a virtue, rather than ridiculed because it goes against the stupidity of safe herd mentality.
Just about the best post I've read on this thread, in my humble opinion.Unless rising youth unemployment is 'working', rising sovereign and personal debt is 'working', a widening wealth gap is 'working', a centre of innovation where there is no innovation because it's bad for businesses status quo (think FCC and fibre internets that they've been subsidised to provide) is working?
Democratic? You have two choices which seem to be about the same. And they are both more influenced by lobbyists than the needs of the majority it would seem?
Clear checks on govt, like the CIA who lied to government about torturing people?
A recent study suggests the USA doesn't act so well as a democracy for the majority, and under peer review it seems to be fairly robust.
I'll agree, they're big and mean with a hefty military and a great legacy of economic potency and power... if this were 50 years ago I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.
But today I'm less convinced the USA is out there to make the world a better place for everyone.
I don't support communism, nor do I support Putin. Nor do I support the western democracies we have today which just f
k about doing nothing positive while sapping GDP to have their expensive talking shop gravy trains.I'm just amazed how people can polarise themselves to USA 'good', because Putin is 'bad'
They're both equally bad and stupid. Dragging the security of 'normal' peoples wealth, jobs, livelihoods and pensions left right and centre just so the wealthy elites on both sides can fight over oil pipelines and how many percentage points they can skim over billions or trillions in energy deals.
I just think we need to be both positive and critical about both sides motivations and virtues.
But hey. We live in the west right. That means we have to be pro west. To actually want to have a neutral standpoint that balances sides fairly makes you a clueless communist.
Maybe one day idealism will be something viewed as a virtue, rather than ridiculed because it goes against the stupidity of safe herd mentality.
AreOut said:
Bluebarge said:
Without consequences to Russia?
Dear, oh dear, it's all about willy-waving with you guys isn't it?
not about me, I'm not the one pressing the red button, but the fact is Putin aside there might be some fed up general in nuclear command that will initiate the sequenceDear, oh dear, it's all about willy-waving with you guys isn't it?
and if that happens you can hang all those interconnections on your willy and wave them
Believe it or not, most Russian's have no desire to turn their family, friends and country into a smouldering pile of ash.
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