Israeli

[-Z-]

RedTrident said:

Where'd you get the stat of 28 killed by the rocket attacks? I've not seen that before.

Its 28 deaths in the last 14 years! Or to put it another way, same amount of Israelis murdered by other Israelis every 3 months. Israelis actually pose a higher risk to themselves than Hamas by some margin....

[allnighter]

JagLover said:

As I have said before no country in the world would accept rockets being fired at them without reprisal.

Simplistic nonsense.

I do not remember us bombing the crap out of civilians in Northern Ireland. We had the military might to square up to the IRA, punish their civilian supporters, and the means to assassinate their leaders.

Expect people to resist when you slowly squeeze the life out of them in the biggest open prison known to mankind.

Expect people to resist when you punish them and recklessly kill thousands of civilians every few years for democratically electing leaders that you do not approve of.

Expect people to resist when you occupy their territories and refuse to recognize their 'right to exist' and their right to self-determination.

Resistance is the only thing left for the Palestinians, other than death by Israel's state sponsored terrorism.

[skyrover]

-Z- said:

RedTrident said:

Where'd you get the stat of 28 killed by the rocket attacks? I've not seen that before.

Its 28 deaths in the last 14 years! Or to put it another way, same amount of Israelis murdered by other Israelis every 3 months. Israelis actually pose a higher risk to themselves than Hamas by some margin....

From Hamas itself

Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar has said that the goal of the attacks is to force mass migration in Israel and disrupt the daily life of its citizens. Explaining why his group had moved from suicide bombing to rocket attacks, he said:

Which do you think is more effective, martyrdom operations or rockets against Sderot? Rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government administration and can make a much huger impact on the government. We are using the methods that convince the Israelis that their occupation is costing them too much. We are succeeding with the rockets. We have no losses and the impact on the Israeli side is so much.[177]

[NoNeed]

avinalarf said:

The Greek Cypriots ?
Oh I forgot, the Turks are Moslems,so that's alright.
There are many more examples.
Many countries in the Middle East and Africa are now,today,being invaded by terrorists,but that does not fit in with your World view,so you ignore it.

Showing other things that are wrong with the world does not make the thing we are discussing right, it just means that you understand right from wrong and know what Israel is doing IS wrong.

[-Z-]

skyrover said:

From Hamas itself

Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar has said that the goal of the attacks is to force mass migration in Israel and disrupt the daily life of its citizens. Explaining why his group had moved from suicide bombing to rocket attacks, he said:

Which do you think is more effective, martyrdom operations or rockets against Sderot? Rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government administration and can make a much huger impact on the government. We are using the methods that convince the Israelis that their occupation is costing them too much. We are succeeding with the rockets. We have no losses and the impact on the Israeli side is so much.[177]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but numbers don't lie.

You were twice as likely to have been killed by terrorism in the last 14 years as an American in America than by Hamas rockets in Israel. So let's not buy this we live in daily terror crap.

[skyrover]

-Z- said:

skyrover said:

From Hamas itself

Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar has said that the goal of the attacks is to force mass migration in Israel and disrupt the daily life of its citizens. Explaining why his group had moved from suicide bombing to rocket attacks, he said:

Which do you think is more effective, martyrdom operations or rockets against Sderot? Rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government administration and can make a much huger impact on the government. We are using the methods that convince the Israelis that their occupation is costing them too much. We are succeeding with the rockets. We have no losses and the impact on the Israeli side is so much.[177]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make, but numbers don't lie.

You were twice as likely to have been killed by terrorism in the last 14 years as an American in America than by Hamas rockets in Israel. So let's not buy this we live in daily terror crap.

I guarantee, if you lived there, you would be begging the Israeli government to do something as well.

[Countdown]

avinalarf said:

The Greek Cypriots ?
Oh I forgot, the Turks are Moslems,so that's alright.
There are many more examples.
Many countries in the Middle East and Africa are now,today,being invaded by terrorists,but that does not fit in with your World view,so you ignore it.

The "Greek Cypriots" example has been given before. I would say the main differences are that

(A) the Turks aren't building more and more settlements in southern Cyprus
(B) the Turks don't carry out mass arrest and detention without trial of Greek Cypriots
(C) the Turks don't assassinate Greek Cypriot leaders

Israel does all of the above and then plays the faux-naïf when Hamas responds.

[NoNeed]

skyrover said:

I guarantee, if you lived there, you would be begging the Israeli government to do something as well.

You may be right. I would be begging then to end hostilities so we could live together in peace without fear, without danger and without the hatred nurtures by the west for their own interests that has divided the two groups.

[avinalarf]

NoNeed said:

Showing other things that are wrong with the world does not make the thing we are discussing right, it just means that you understand right from wrong and know what Israel is doing IS wrong.

Trying to get a balance is my point.
The Israelis are no worse than any other country at war.
When other atrocities by other countries/ other religions are mentioned in the media,then 2 days later,it's chip paper and they move on.
The Israelis are expected to be pissed on ,shrug their shoulders, and let it pass.
However bad the IRA were,they are not in the same league as the Muslim fundamentalist terrorists.
When we are faced with the Muslim fundamentalist terrorist threat in the UK,on the scale of that which Israel has suffered,and we will be,remember what you posted on this forum.
This is not to say that ,this time,the present Israeli government has appeared to be heavy handed.
The loss of innocent lives is not to be applauded..
Presently the World is fighting a war against the most savage muslim fundamentalist threat
It is most unfortunate that both the Palestinians and the Israelis are slap bang in the middle of it.
Nothing would please me more than a peaceful solution.
I welcome peace loving Muslims and I count them amongst my friends and acquaintances.
I have however nothing in common with fundamentalists of any religion or creed.

Edited by avinalarf on Sunday 3rd August 13:00

[NoNeed]

avinalarf said:

NoNeed said:

Showing other things that are wrong with the world does not make the thing we are discussing right, it just means that you understand right from wrong and know what Israel is doing IS wrong.

Trying to get a balance is my point.
The Israelis are no worse than any other country at war.
I do not understand the hysterical and venomous attacks on Israel when other atrocities by other countries/ other religions are mentioned in the media,then 2 days later,it's chip paper and they move on.
The Israelis are expected to be pissed on ,shrug their shoulders, and let it pass.
However bad the IRA were,they are not in the same league as the Muslim terrorists.
When we are faced with the Muslim terrorist threat in the UK,on the scale of that which Israel has suffered,and we will be,remember what you posted on this forum.

Israel is NOT AT WAR!

Israel is the occupier, Israel could end all hostilities now but has chosen not to. Israel is not facing another nation that has declared war it is facing a backlash from the residents of Gaza that do not like Israel killing it's children and forcing inhumane living conditions on them.

Israel IS NOT AT WAR. Israel is effectively having a problem with its prisoners.

Israel gives these people a reason to fight then punishes them beyond anything that is human and reasonable when they do.

Israel is knowingly and efficiently killing innocent women and children with its sophisticated modern targeted weapons. It could stop this anytime it wants to.

[avinalarf]

NoNeed said:

srael is NOT AT WAR!

Israel is the occupier, Israel could end all hostilities now but has chosen not to. Israel is not facing another nation that has declared war it is facing a backlash from the residents of Gaza that do not like Israel killing it's children and forcing inhumane living conditions on them.

Israel IS NOT AT WAR. Israel is effectively having a problem with its prisoners.

Israel gives these people a reason to fight then punishes them beyond anything that is human and reasonable when they do.

Israel is knowingly and efficiently killing innocent women and children with its sophisticated modern targeted weapons. It could stop this anytime it wants to.

You and I are not going to agree on this.
No problem with that as far as I am concerned.
Thanks for the chat.

[LaSource]

zuby84 said:

You actually wonder what Israel's non-public long term aim is (I'm talking about a time-scale of decades to centuries) and if what they're doing now and every few years is just baby steps towards that long-term goal? IF I was a hard-core Zionist/Israel; I would one day want ALL of the West Bank and Gaza for myself. I would want a one-state solution with all of Israel/Palestine, but with none of the Palestinians in it.

I'm just postulating here, but IF this was your aim; how would you go about achieving it? Maybe slowly encroach into Gaza and the West Bank with settlements. Besiege the Palestinians and stop vital supplies getting in, bomb them every few years with a show of your military power to show them who's boss and basically either let them fizzle out by reducing the birthrate/health of the population or hope they are displaced to neighbouring countries over the next decades to centuries?

I for one am totally sickened by the overall air of legitimacy that Israel has enjoyed over the last few decades in that it "can do no wrong." We've seen recently just how happy Israeli's and their supporters are in playing the anti-semetic card when someone dares criticise Israel for their illegal (UN defined) actions (you just have to look at the various celebrities who have been forced to backtrack after saying seemingly innocent things about the conflict). The real barriers to peace is the Israeli's themselves and the actions of the USA, with recently a bit of Hamas thrown in. It is little wonder why the USA is hated in so many parts of the World and WHY there were celebrations on the street after 9/11. Perhaps a little bit of "now you know how we feel" mentality (Just to add, I find any celebration of death distasteful and morally unacceptable.)

For all definitions; Israel is an (illegal) occupying power. Just because the Palestinians don't have tanks, planes and "soldiers" in uniform; we've been conditioned to think that the actions of Israel's army has a greater degree of legitimacy; however the tide is turning and more of the World are seeing Israel for what it really is. Of course the numpties at Hamas should stop firing their rockets at Israeli civilians and at least be one party to stop the tit-for-tat violence; but what other option do they have to try and "resist" the takeover of their country? What would you do if 5 of your family members died in an Israeli air-strike and saw more and more of your countries land being taken away whilst they forced you to live in open air prisons? I think many of the posters here are having a laugh if they can't even begin to even empathise a little with the plight of the Palestinians.

RedTrident said:

Our government's silence on this atrocity in comparison tot our loud and immediate voices in the Ukraine, Libya and even Syria is very telling. Too weak to speak out against a terrorist state. I feel shamed that these silent men and women are our elected leaders.

More and more backbench MPs from all sides are speaking out yet CMD remains silent.

So the last few days I have been wondering what is going on here...and I've come to the hypothesis that we have a conflict here with two facets.

1. The typical Israel / Palestine conflict which has been playing out for many years.
We have a classic case of David vs Goliath...where David has to resort to asymmetrical warfare (tunnels, capturing, etc - aka a rock sling) as there is no winning resistance strategy in going up against Goliath in open field (aka having a punch up with the US backed Goliath).
Although the Israeli propaganda machine (as can be witnessed by the supporters on this forum as well) use the usual arguments to support why Goliath is ok to beat up David and arguing that the rock sling is bad form.
However overall Zuby's post above is probably right in that Goliath is hoping to slowly strangle David into an ineffective and unviable entity....the elephant in the room is fairly obvious as the Israeli strategy is not conducive to a long term side by side peace based end goal....it just keep fomenting more hatred because each one of the 1700 Palestinian dead has at least one relative that will sign up for the next militant/resistance flag bearer.
170 odd pages later the same argument goes round...in some ways nothing new here.

2. The wider middle eastern context
...so to redtrident's quote above
Historically well before now the Arab States would have been baying for the conflict to stop, calling out Israel's harsh response, threatening UN resolutions. US and UK would be playing to block or delay such resolutions, effectively buying time for Israel to reach a few local goals, Israel would intensify its bombardment, and then all would agree a truce and the world would go back to its daily lives and forget anything serious was happening.
However, this time the world political leaders are mostly silent. The digital media allows us to better see the horror on the ground. So what is different this time?
....well recent Arab spring has shown that democracy in ME is not actually that desirable from a western viewpoint - as the west cannot control who comes to power...or influence them in the same way as you can with a single royal family or dictator. There is a perception that Hamas share more in populist ways with groups like Isis and whoever is active in Libya. Therefore the Saudis, Egyptians, Syria, Iran, and other semi-dictators, etc are all quiet. To some extent so is Cameron....basically they all are afraid of the populist/Islamic groups gaining a hold. So in this perfect storm all are less inclined to speak up in gaza...whilst the lonesome civilian burns (quite literally).
The Turks (closer to a republic/democracy) and Qataris (small extremely rich country where every national is well looked after unlike Saudi Arabia) have more freedom to speak up or support the gazans.
I sense Israel also understands this pea soup and so continue to take advantage.

This reminds me a little of a Goebbell quote somebody posted many pages earlier in this thread. There are leaders and there is the rest of the population. The leaders are playing out this game...some for national goals...and some to stay in power because historic event have allowed them to stay in power and use their country's resources. The rest of the population is just fed some nonesense. Except now with the advent of digital media...the population is seeing things and wondering what's going on.

Anyway, all IMHO.

Edited by LaSource on Sunday 3rd August 13:28

[-Z-]

skyrover said:

I guarantee, if you lived there, you would be begging the Israeli government to do something as well.

You can guarantee nothing. I guess 10000 Israelis protesting against the war are a figment of my imagination?


http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_article...

[Scuffers]

LaSource said:

Interesting.
Apart from the 2 Israeli and 1 Thai civilian, the 1000+ dead are all on the gaza side. The gazans are terrorised by American and Israeli weaponry usually fired to stay within thin legal grounds (e.g. If a civilian runs back into a targeted building then they can be officially classed as a human shield)
Anyway, carry on.

so, let me get this right, you would be happier if Israel turned off it's iron dome systems and 1,000+ Israelis were dead? that would make it 'right' would it?

you seem to forget that a government's first priority is the protection and safety of it's citizens, something the PA (in this case Hamas) have no regard for.

you keep telling us that Hamas are the legitimate government, yet they fail to do the first job of a government, instead they are trying to prosecute their ideological war on jews.

Jimbeaux said:

Qwert1e said:

Scuffers said:

What exactly have we got from the Arab world?

A post like that could only be made by a complete ignoramus. I suggest you take a look at Monty Python's Life of Brian to get a feel for the subject and then check out the list below,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9foi342LXQE

•Muslims translated most of the scientific works of antiquity into Arabic.
•Muslim mathematicians devised and developed Algebra.
•Al-Khwarazmi used Arabic numerals which came to the West through his work in the 9th century.
•Al-Razi described and treated smallpox in the 10th century.
•Al-Razi also used alcohol as an antiseptic.
•Ibn Sina diagnosed and treated meningitis in the 11th century.
•Ibn al-Haytham discovered the Camera Obscura in the 11th century.
•Al-Biruni described the Ganges valley as a sedimentary basin in the 11th century.
•Muslims built the first observatory as a scientific institution in the 13th century.
•Qutb al-Din al-Shirazi explained the cause of the rainbow in the 13th century.
•Ibn al-Nafis described the minor circulation of the blood in the 14th century.
•Al-Kashani invented a computing machine in the 15th century.

I suppose he was referring to the last 600 years.

actually, was thinking of just the last 100, but you are right, 600 is closer to the truth...

-Z- said:

RedTrident said:

Where'd you get the stat of 28 killed by the rocket attacks? I've not seen that before.

Its 28 deaths in the last 14 years! Or to put it another way, same amount of Israelis murdered by other Israelis every 3 months. Israelis actually pose a higher risk to themselves than Hamas by some margin....

once again, your trying to turn it into a numbers game, the reason Israel is not suffering more casualties of late is they have put the time and effort into defence systems to protect their public, ever house has a shelter, iron dome, etc etc.

what have Hamas done? fire rockets from UN schools and peoples houses making them targets for returning shell-fire, that's putting your citizens in harms way or to use another term, human shield, or is that OK, cause they are not the IDF?

FFS will you open your eyes to the reality of war and what is going on?

[NoNeed]

avinalarf said:

You and I are not going to agree on this.
No problem with that as far as I am concerned.
Thanks for the chat.

You're welcome

[Jimbeaux]

-Z- said:

RedTrident said:

Where'd you get the stat of 28 killed by the rocket attacks? I've not seen that before.

Its 28 deaths in the last 14 years! Or to put it another way, same amount of Israelis murdered by other Israelis every 3 months. Israelis actually pose a higher risk to themselves than Hamas by some margin....

Just because their fighting skills and hardware suck does not excuse the intent. If/when hamas gets the means, they will show you what killing civilians really looks like.

[Scuffers]

Jimbeaux said:

Just because their fighting skills and hardware suck does not excuse the intent. If/when hamas gets the means, they will show you what killing civilians really looks like.

what would be interesting to know would be the numbers of palestinians that have been killed at the hands of Hamas, including when their rockets fall short/explode

at the moment, the assumption is that they are all civilians and all at the hands of the IDF which is obviously not 100% true.

[LaSource]

Scuffers said:

LaSource said:

Interesting.
Apart from the 2 Israeli and 1 Thai civilian, the 1000+ dead are all on the gaza side. The gazans are terrorised by American and Israeli weaponry usually fired to stay within thin legal grounds (e.g. If a civilian runs back into a targeted building then they can be officially classed as a human shield)
Anyway, carry on.

so, let me get this right, you would be happier if Israel turned off it's iron dome systems and 1,000+ Israelis were dead? that would make it 'right' would it?

No Scuffers, you have misinterpreted. I would be happier if no civilians died...it is about proportionality of threat vs reaction and therefore the usage of the terms 'terrorism' and collective punishment.
That should be obvious to most people.

[-Z-]

Jimbeaux said:

Just because their fighting skills and hardware suck does not excuse the intent. If/when hamas gets the means, they will show you what killing civilians really looks like.

You are using intent to justify over 1000 civilian deaths?

That's like the death penalty for attempted murder. The only countries that do that are Cuba, Sudan and Thailand. And Israel apparently. I guess Israel has found its moral level.

[JuniorD]

skyrover said:

-Z- said:

RedTrident said:

Where'd you get the stat of 28 killed by the rocket attacks? I've not seen that before.

Its 28 deaths in the last 14 years! Or to put it another way, same amount of Israelis murdered by other Israelis every 3 months. Israelis actually pose a higher risk to themselves than Hamas by some margin....

From Hamas itself

Hamas co-founder Mahmoud Zahar has said that the goal of the attacks is to force mass migration in Israel and disrupt the daily life of its citizens. Explaining why his group had moved from suicide bombing to rocket attacks, he said:

Which do you think is more effective, martyrdom operations or rockets against Sderot? Rockets against Sderot will cause mass migration, greatly disrupt daily lives and government administration and can make a much huger impact on the government. We are using the methods that convince the Israelis that their occupation is costing them too much. We are succeeding with the rockets. We have no losses and the impact on the Israeli side is so much.[177]

Zahar needs to take heed of how Irish rerepublicans shifted tactics. When their campaign was brought to canary wharf, loss of life was mitigated but commerical and economic damage was upped. The cause suddenly was taken far more seriously.

Just consider how Isreal st themselves when flights to tel aviv were recently cancelled. They even did a volte face and claimed the area was safe from rocket attack, despite the usual 'living in fear' nonsense. That sa