This is desperately sad and upsetting (Greek Crisis)

[Nom de ploom]

for an economy on its knees yes it is...total debt is 160% of GDP (s: bbc)

more worryingly for me is the likelhood that opponents within the government cabinet of the deal will likley be sacked or leave thier posts....that is not democracy, hence the govt that made this deal will likely lose the next election and the next govt who didn't agree to the deal will be left holding the baby....

this is a 360bn euro sized albatross

Greece to be a second world country in less than five years.

[johnfm]

The European politicians were never going to let Greece leave. Their choice was to let Greece go and the other ones will follow or let Greece stay and take the piss - and the other will follow.

They prefer Spain, Portugal etc defaulting rather than leaving. They cannot allow the social engineering experiment to fail (though of course it already has).

[Ali G]

Greece, Shipping and Taxes...

http://time.com/3951086/dracopoulos-shipping-magna...

Article said:

Under a provision written into the Greek constitution half a century ago, the government is forbidden from taxing what the ship owners earn abroad, a hallmark of the political influence these oligarchs have enjoyed for decades. In recent weeks, European leaders have urged Greece to shift more of the country’s financial burden onto the super rich, and have apparently been rebuffed.

[Stig]

johnfm said:

The European politicians were never going to let Greece leave. Their choice was to let Greece go and the other ones will follow or let Greece stay and take the piss - and the other will follow.

They prefer Spain, Portugal etc defaulting rather than leaving. They cannot allow the social engineering experiment to fail (though of course it already has).

Indeed - http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/...

Pay special attention to the actions of the Eurogroup. Unelected, unnacountable and, allegedly, above the law.

Deeply concerning.

[Rovinghawk]

jimmybobby said:

Stuff about the mandate

Tell me about the strong hand in the negotiations....................

[jimmybobby]

johnfm said:

The European politicians were never going to let Greece leave. Their choice was to let Greece go and the other ones will follow or let Greece stay and take the piss - and the other will follow.

They prefer Spain, Portugal etc defaulting rather than leaving. They cannot allow the social engineering experiment to fail (though of course it already has).

Yes but thats the befuddling thing here. Tsipras had a blinder of a hand and simply folded rather than win. He had Russia on his side courting him and holding meetings with him massively pissing off the warmongering US meaning the US putting pressure on all the Euro players to keep Greece in the fold. He had a mandate from the Greek people saying they did not want to take a deal just like this. He had the EU cronies desperate need to not have Greece default or GREXIT which would give a green light to other struggling countries in the EU to do the same.

Literally had it all and has thrown it away. No matter what when he hands it to his parliament to decide whether to accept he is finished. He has totally gone against all the values he claims to represent and that got him and his party into office.

Just to be clear I am not Greek I simply find this whole situation astonishing.

[Pan Pan Pan]

jimmybobby said:

Andy Zarse said:

Derek Smith said:

jimmybobby said:

Predictable. The only real issue for me is it hasnt gone down quite the way I expected. I fully expect Tsipras gone within 12-24months. I cannot understand why when given the mandate he was given by the Greek people and with such a strong hand he has capitulated and given the EU what they wanted and I strongly suspect the Greeks wont understand either and he will be punished for it.

The change of heart of Tsipras has surprised me as well. It is not going as I anticipated, apart from the capitulation of the EZ though.

Tzippy is political toast...

I think you mean goodbye!

The only question is how long. It could be within weeks or he could try hang on for a period and then find it unsustainable. The stupid thing in all this is this is going to have a far far worse outcome for Greece's lenders than if Tsipras had stuck to his demands and mandate. A lot of people are going to lose everything over this.

Worst case the EU would have lost Greece (not a bad thing for al involved). There is no way on gods green earth Greece will be able to stick to their debt repayment plan. That was the primary objective for Greece originally it was to stop the stupid quick repayment policy and spread the debt restructuring over 20-25 years + almost like a mortgage.

Stipulating repayment of 85 billion in three years is a dead duck and any moron should be able to see it.

The Greek people may be too stupid to realize that not only did they back the wrong horse in the last GE, on the ridiculous promise (for that read, outright lie) from Tsipras, that he could somehow magic away the vast debt the country had built up, but also that they could continue with operating their backward, dishonest, lazy, shyster medieval economy, in the face of a fast developing world against which Greece could not hope to engage with, let alone compete with.

Their admission to the EU and consequent billions in bailout Euros, has been squandered by Greece, who just took the cash (for years) but refused to restructure, their dire operating practises.
Well their intransigence has now come home to bite them in the a*rse HARD.
They can either carry on kidding themselves, that they are pulling one over on the EU, and other countries of the world, or they can face up to their short comings, and take the pain and hardship (Cold turkey if you like) needed to drag their backward, dishonest practices into the 21st century to a point where others can actually trust them.
As posted elsewhere, I don't think they can do it, but would actually like to be proven wrong.

[Derek Smith]

jimmybobby said:

Yes but thats the befuddling thing here. Tsipras had a blinder of a hand and simply folded rather than win. He had Russia on his side courting him and holding meetings with him massively pissing off the warmongering US meaning the US putting pressure on all the Euro players to keep Greece in the fold. He had a mandate from the Greek people saying they did not want to take a deal just like this. He had the EU cronies desperate need to not have Greece default or GREXIT which would give a green light to other struggling countries in the EU to do the same.

Literally had it all and has thrown it away. No matter what when he hands it to his parliament to decide whether to accept he is finished. He has totally gone against all the values he claims to represent and that got him and his party into office.

Just to be clear I am not Greek I simply find this whole situation astonishing.

In these situations there are always negotiations behind closed doors, promises made, hands shaken. I suppose that is a possibility. But as you say, on the face of it he had a strong negotiating base: the evil bear.

Very odd.

[RYH64E]

jimmybobby said:

Yes but thats the befuddling thing here. Tsipras had a blinder of a hand and simply folded rather than win. He had Russia on his side courting him and holding meetings with him massively pissing off the warmongering US meaning the US putting pressure on all the Euro players to keep Greece in the fold. He had a mandate from the Greek people saying they did not want to take a deal just like this. He had the EU cronies desperate need to not have Greece default or GREXIT which would give a green light to other struggling countries in the EU to do the same.

Literally had it all and has thrown it away. No matter what when he hands it to his parliament to decide whether to accept he is finished. He has totally gone against all the values he claims to represent and that got him and his party into office.

Just to be clear I am not Greek I simply find this whole situation astonishing.

Really? It looked to me like he was leading a country on the verge of complete financial collapse, where banks have been closed for a fortnight with no prospect of reopening without EU support, where there was no cashflow available for businesses to import essential supplies, where pensions won't be paid without a deal, and where the only currency available to them is controlled by the people he's negotiating with. What were his options? Tell the EU to stick it then spend 12 months getting a New Drachma currency in place? What would be left of the Greek economy after a few more weeks of this?

[jimmybobby]

RYH64E said:

jimmybobby said:

Yes but thats the befuddling thing here. Tsipras had a blinder of a hand and simply folded rather than win. He had Russia on his side courting him and holding meetings with him massively pissing off the warmongering US meaning the US putting pressure on all the Euro players to keep Greece in the fold. He had a mandate from the Greek people saying they did not want to take a deal just like this. He had the EU cronies desperate need to not have Greece default or GREXIT which would give a green light to other struggling countries in the EU to do the same.

Literally had it all and has thrown it away. No matter what when he hands it to his parliament to decide whether to accept he is finished. He has totally gone against all the values he claims to represent and that got him and his party into office.

Just to be clear I am not Greek I simply find this whole situation astonishing.

Really? It looked to me like he was leading a country on the verge of complete financial collapse, where banks have been closed for a fortnight with no prospect of reopening without EU support, where there was no cashflow available for businesses to import essential supplies, where pensions won't be paid without a deal, and where the only currency available to them is controlled by the people he's negotiating with. What were his options? Tell the EU to stick it then spend 12 months getting a New Drachma currency in place? What would be left of the Greek economy after a few more weeks of this?

Granted difficult situation and maybe thats why they did the deal but it really is kicking the ball down the road about a year or two.

[jimmybobby]

Just spotted this and personally i think it would be better to use it to help Greece exit instead of stay in. Hell i would back Cameron writing off say 2 billion to Greece so they could exit gracefully ish.


http://news.sky.com/story/1518285/britain-may-face...

[PlankWithANailIn]

jimmybobby said:

Just spotted this and personally i think it would be better to use it to help Greece exit instead of stay in. Hell i would back Cameron writing off say 2 billion to Greece so they could exit gracefully ish.


http://news.sky.com/story/1518285/britain-may-face...

I assume this 2 billion will come out of your own personal fortune and not my pension?

[prand]

I'd be happy if we swapped it for something nice, like Corfu or Crete!

[Mr GrimNasty]

How many times can you kick the can down the road, before you run out of road?

[Blib]

Mr GrimNasty said:

How many times can you kick the can down the road, before you run out of road?

M25.

[Guybrush]

Just put off the inevitable with other people's money, again. The EU desperate for no one to leave, lest they set an example to others by doing well, freed from the unworkable union of different economies.

[iambeowulf]

PlankWithANailIn said:

I assume this 2 billion will come out of your own personal fortune and not my pension?

It's the banks money not UK tax payers.

Osborne said so it must be true.
Greece debt crisis: No UK cash for bailout, Osborne says http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33517457

[jimmybobby]

iambeowulf said:

PlankWithANailIn said:

I assume this 2 billion will come out of your own personal fortune and not my pension?

It's the banks money not UK tax payers.

Osborne said so it must be true.
Greece debt crisis: No UK cash for bailout, Osborne says http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33517457

Yeah yeah sure. Wont happen blah blah.. G.O: Good news peeps although they wanted us to contribute 1.5 billion we talked em down and will only contribute 750 million.

Oh look says i smoke and fking mirrors as usual.

[jimmybobby]

PlankWithANailIn said:

jimmybobby said:

Just spotted this and personally i think it would be better to use it to help Greece exit instead of stay in. Hell i would back Cameron writing off say 2 billion to Greece so they could exit gracefully ish.


http://news.sky.com/story/1518285/britain-may-face...

I assume this 2 billion will come out of your own personal fortune and not my pension?

We can continue to contribute to and be affected by a failed system or we can contribute to a Grexit which long term will cost us less most likely.

[anonymous-user]

jimmybobby said:

PlankWithANailIn said:

jimmybobby said:

Just spotted this and personally i think it would be better to use it to help Greece exit instead of stay in. Hell i would back Cameron writing off say 2 billion to Greece so they could exit gracefully ish.


http://news.sky.com/story/1518285/britain-may-face...

I assume this 2 billion will come out of your own personal fortune and not my pension?

We can continue to contribute to and be affected by a failed system or we can contribute to a Grexit which long term will cost us less most likely.

Maybe wiser to put the money into a Brexit...........