Banning the Burqini...
Discussion
walm said:
You think we/the west are protecting radicals?
I agree on the risk of polarisation. That is definitely a huge worry.
Absolutely yes. Through dogged insistence on multiculturalism. Through wilfully allowing Islamism to hide behind anti-racism. Through supporting shariah law in Iraq and Afghanistan after the wars there. Through supporting "rebels" in Syria. Through allowing Saudi salafists a free reign to fund mosques and so on. I agree on the risk of polarisation. That is definitely a huge worry.
Generally through a misunderstanding of what jihadism is,a and a (quite arrogant) assumption that it must be some aberration caused by western policy or white prejudice thwarting integration.
popeyewhite said:
Sit down, make yourself a cuppa.
I am sat down, this is an internet forum you pillock.Your passive acceptance of fascist laws is a part of the problem, I honestly think if France persists with this it could be a turning point and the liberal democracies we've worked hard to build in Europe will be done away with in favour of hard right ideologies. France is on the wrong side of history here, anyone who supports this law, actively or passively, is a racist.
AJS- said:
Absolutely yes. Through dogged insistence on multiculturalism. Through wilfully allowing Islamism to hide behind anti-racism. Through supporting shariah law in Iraq and Afghanistan after the wars there. Through supporting "rebels" in Syria. Through allowing Saudi salafists a free reign to fund mosques and so on.
Generally through a misunderstanding of what jihadism is,a and a (quite arrogant) assumption that it must be some aberration caused by western policy or white prejudice thwarting integration.
You're conflating integration with extremism. Generally through a misunderstanding of what jihadism is,a and a (quite arrogant) assumption that it must be some aberration caused by western policy or white prejudice thwarting integration.
BJG1 said:
popeyewhite said:
Sit down, make yourself a cuppa.
I am sat down, this is an internet forum you pillock.Your passive acceptance of fascist laws is a part of the problem, I honestly think if France persists with this it could be a turning point and the liberal democracies we've worked hard to build in Europe will be done away with in favour of hard right ideologies. France is on the wrong side of history here, anyone who supports this law, actively or passively, is a racist.
walm said:
lionelf said:
I'm a liberal but I'm afraid I agree with Sam Harris who says the 'Liberal elite' have let us down on the issue of immigration and our relationship with the Muslim world.
We're in danger of Liberalising ourselves out of existence eventually.
That's just ridiculous hyperbole.We're in danger of Liberalising ourselves out of existence eventually.
1. A boat load of immigration was owing to the EU rules. Brexit is solving that.
2. This data shows that 19% of the non-UK born population in the UK are Muslim.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_407038.pdf
So at THE VERY WORSE we would see the 5% muslim population growing to 19%.
Now don't forget that we have just 300k-ish net migration a year. 0.5% of the population.
So at that rate in 100 years the population will be 9% muslim up from 5%.
HOW UTTERLY TERRIFYING!!
And how, given the seriousness of the home-grown islamic terrorist threat that currently faces us, do YOU intend to deal with that issue when the Muslim population rises from 5% or 1/20th to 19% or (almost) 1/5th?
Your argument fails to deal with these issues or even look at them head-on choosing instead to let the rest of society down simply burying your head in the sand.
BJG1 said:
popeyewhite said:
Sit down, make yourself a cuppa.
I am sat down, this is an internet forum you pillock.Your passive acceptance of fascist laws is a part of the problem, I honestly think if France persists with this it could be a turning point and the liberal democracies we've worked hard to build in Europe will be done away with in favour of hard right ideologies. France is on the wrong side of history here, anyone who supports this law, actively or passively, is a racist.
walm said:
popeyewhite said:
walm said:
And it's pretty big on the scale of things if you are a muslim beach-goer!
It's not even in the same ball-park.I disagree!!!
Held at gunpoint ffs - you make it sound like they put a gun to her head and said we'll shoot you....
No, the French police are there to enforce laws, and it just happened they now have to have assault rifles to protect people from crazy snack bar / mental health issue crews.
Boosted LS1 said:
Why do you thing the far right are becoming popular again? It's because the leftie/liberal democracies have given to much away. Nationalism isn't racism. Protecting one's country and it's values isn't racism either and not wanting to be overwhelmed by another ideology isn't racism. Wake up, smell the coffee.
I read this on a daily beast article and think it sums up the situation well:"The burkini is, in fact, a sad symbol of Islam today going backward on gender issues. France’s ban on it is a sad symbol of liberalism today going backward in reply.
Classical liberals of any religion or none would do well to remember that this does not have to be a zero-sum game. It is possible to oppose the French ban on burkinis while also challenging the mindset of those who support burkas and burkinis."
Allowing all forms of dress on a beach isn't giving anything away, as you put it. The State has no place in dictating dress to others. If you want the next generation of Muslims to better integrate, show them a better way, the value of freedom and tolerance. Don't persecute their mothers
BJG1 said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Why do you thing the far right are becoming popular again? It's because the leftie/liberal democracies have given to much away. Nationalism isn't racism. Protecting one's country and it's values isn't racism either and not wanting to be overwhelmed by another ideology isn't racism. Wake up, smell the coffee.
I read this on a daily beast article and think it sums up the situation well:"The burkini is, in fact, a sad symbol of Islam today going backward on gender issues. France’s ban on it is a sad symbol of liberalism today going backward in reply.
Classical liberals of any religion or none would do well to remember that this does not have to be a zero-sum game. It is possible to oppose the French ban on burkinis while also challenging the mindset of those who support burkas and burkinis."
Allowing all forms of dress on a beach isn't giving anything away, as you put it. The State has no place in dictating dress to others. If you want the next generation of Muslims to better integrate, show them a better way, the value of freedom and tolerance. Don't persecute their mothers
We don't have to do anything. They come to us, it's up to them to integrate with us. They can do anything they want providing the basic tenets of our way of life is adhered to.
Its not our fault.
If they want to live under sharia law, cover their faces, stick their bums in the air every Friday in segregated gatherings then they can, just not here. There is total freedom of choice.
If they're happy to integrate with us, then I'll be their staunchest supporter as I am to my family who did exactly the same generations back.
Mothersruin said:
You're an idiot.
We don't have to do anything. They come to us, it's up to them to integrate with us. They can do anything they want providing the basic tenets of our way of life is adhered to.
Its not our fault.
If they want to live under sharia law, cover their faces, stick their bums in the air every Friday in segregated gatherings then they can, just not here. There is total freedom of choice.
If they're happy to integrate with us, then I'll be their staunchest supporter as I am to my family who did exactly the same generations back.
Who's they? I assume you're including British Muslims?We don't have to do anything. They come to us, it's up to them to integrate with us. They can do anything they want providing the basic tenets of our way of life is adhered to.
Its not our fault.
If they want to live under sharia law, cover their faces, stick their bums in the air every Friday in segregated gatherings then they can, just not here. There is total freedom of choice.
If they're happy to integrate with us, then I'll be their staunchest supporter as I am to my family who did exactly the same generations back.
Alpinestars said:
Mothersruin said:
You're an idiot.
We don't have to do anything. They come to us, it's up to them to integrate with us. They can do anything they want providing the basic tenets of our way of life is adhered to.
Its not our fault.
If they want to live under sharia law, cover their faces, stick their bums in the air every Friday in segregated gatherings then they can, just not here. There is total freedom of choice.
If they're happy to integrate with us, then I'll be their staunchest supporter as I am to my family who did exactly the same generations back.
Who's they? I assume you're including British Muslims?We don't have to do anything. They come to us, it's up to them to integrate with us. They can do anything they want providing the basic tenets of our way of life is adhered to.
Its not our fault.
If they want to live under sharia law, cover their faces, stick their bums in the air every Friday in segregated gatherings then they can, just not here. There is total freedom of choice.
If they're happy to integrate with us, then I'll be their staunchest supporter as I am to my family who did exactly the same generations back.
Mothersruin said:
Anyone who arrives in a country and demands it's changed to suit them.
judging by your posts you believe that they shouldn't be able to go to a mosque?I don't deny we need to address the issue of Radical Islam and related terrorism but I see muslims intergrated into society every day I leave the house
desolate said:
Mothersruin said:
Anyone who arrives in a country and demands it's changed to suit them.
judging by your posts you believe that they shouldn't be able to go to a mosque?I don't deny we need to address the issue of Radical Islam and related terrorism but I see muslims intergrated into society every day I leave the house
I have zero issue with personal prayer, not my thing but I understand that some need it.
Mothersruin said:
Anyone who arrives in a country and demands it's changed to suit them.
I broadly agree with that. But in a free, civilised society, it works both ways. They, like everyone else, shouldn't break the law and demand the unreasonable.
We, shouldn't impose a dress code etc on them that specifically targets them. It's petty and it's counterproductive.
Mothersruin said:
You're an idiot.
We don't have to do anything. They come to us, it's up to them to integrate with us. They can do anything they want providing the basic tenets of our way of life is adhered to.
Its not our fault.
If they want to live under sharia law, cover their faces, stick their bums in the air every Friday in segregated gatherings then they can, just not here. There is total freedom of choice.
If they're happy to integrate with us, then I'll be their staunchest supporter as I am to my family who did exactly the same generations back.
You're a racist.We don't have to do anything. They come to us, it's up to them to integrate with us. They can do anything they want providing the basic tenets of our way of life is adhered to.
Its not our fault.
If they want to live under sharia law, cover their faces, stick their bums in the air every Friday in segregated gatherings then they can, just not here. There is total freedom of choice.
If they're happy to integrate with us, then I'll be their staunchest supporter as I am to my family who did exactly the same generations back.
One of the best things about western society is that we are generally not told what we can or can't do unless it causes harm to others. A burkini doesn't do any harm to anyone, there's no reason whatsoever to ban it.
I don't want your cultural ideals imposed on me and I don't see why a Muslim woman should either. There are lots of elements of our own culture I dislike so I don't take part in them and I have my own interests and hobbies that others would probably fine pretty alien and certainly not normal for UK culture. Fortunately for now I live in a society that allows me to indulge in them anyway, because it doesn't seek to prescribe how to live on others.
desolate said:
I don't deny we need to address the issue of Radical Islam and related terrorism but I see muslims intergrated into society every day I leave the house
You say "I don't deny we need to address the issue of Radical Islam and related terrorism" but then go on to almost down play it with your "but....".Please don't just pay this issue lip service, address it now by suggesting a solution. As I said, I'm a left wing Liberal but people will die from terrorist incidents while this 'try to please everybody' prevarication continues.
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