Libya.

[Muntu]

The times are a changin'

http://youtu.be/nbA0h0WfA4U

[Mermaid]

Be careful what you wish for, for the people are different, their culture is different, their values are different.

[Pesty]

nutty slack said:

Saif Al Islam knows too much. Don't forget he's not just some desert raghead, he was educated in the UK and always had some VERY powerful connections amongst the ruling elite, especially the previous labour administration, amongst others.

Expect the news very soon that he died in:
A car crash on his way to a secure jail
A helicopter/plane crash
A sudden illness
blah blah blah...

This guy knows too much for him to attend an international trial or a trial in Libya where the TRUTH may come out, he's a marked man.

Blair et al can't afford for this man to speak out in public.

Watch this space...

0a said:

Those hand injuries could be fatal...

Reports say his hand wounds have turned gangreenous.

Such a surprise. Wonder if this will cause a severe case of amputation to his head.

[pacman1]

Pesty said:

Reports say his hand wounds have turned gangreenous.

Such a surprise. Wonder if this will cause a severe case of amputation to his head.

Dead man walking if ever there was one.

[Mermaid]

pacman1 said:

Pesty said:

Reports say his hand wounds have turned gangreenous.

Such a surprise. Wonder if this will cause a severe case of amputation to his head.

Dead man walking if ever there was one.

If this "civilian" loses his life whist in Government hands, will NATO intervene?

[RichyBoy]

Nothing on libya in the news for ages, are the people living in peace and harmony now?

[0a]

I thought I'd highlight the article in The Times today - "Gadaffi daughter seeks answers over deaths":

Times Article hard copy so no link said:

he was, apparently, sodomised with a bayonet. Almost all of it was caught on film.

Evil bloke, but the more we learn about "the rebels" the worse they appear to be. On reflection I think it was stupid for us to get involved (the guys I know who worked out there also think it will end in tears).

Edited by 0a on Tuesday 3rd January 17:17

[Mermaid]

I expect it will come to bite us in the butt, eventually. It will be interesting to see how many Libyans seek political asylum in the UK over the next few years.

[bobbylondonuk]

why do I have this wierd feeling that bringing back Saif is plan B for Nato in the long term...maybe 5-10 yrs?

[0a]

bobbylondonuk said:

why do I have this wierd feeling that bringing back Saif is plan B for Nato in the long term...maybe 5-10 yrs?

Either way it's a mess. The article also looks at British culpability as we jointly authorised the mission to depose Gadaffi. No doubt we'll be forced to grant asylum when (soon) the rebels fall out with each other.

Cameron should concentrate on what is going on at home rather than wasting money on Blair style wars.

[NDA]

0a said:

I thought I'd highlight the article in The Times today - "Gadaffi daughter seeks answers over deaths":

Times Article hard copy so no link said:

he was, apparently, sodomised with a bayonet. Almost all of it was caught on film.

Evil bloke, but the more we learn about "the rebels" the worse they appear to be. On reflection I think it was stupid for us to get involved (the guys I know who worked out there also think it will end in tears).

]

I know I'm wrong to say it, but I'm sort of glad he suffered a brutal and humiliating death. He brought misery and pain to tens of thousands. I realise mine is not a sophisticated response - but it's my reaction.

[0a]

NDA said:

I know I'm wrong to say it, but I'm sort of glad he suffered a brutal and humiliating death. He brought misery and pain to tens of thousands. I realise mine is not a sophisticated response - but it's my reaction.

I fully understand your sentiments, and must admit I felt the same way at first.

However these are the guys we have backed and we are relying on to justify the cash we pumped into getting rid of Gadaffi. A civilised government would have put him on trial and executed him.

[NDA]

0a said:

NDA said:

I know I'm wrong to say it, but I'm sort of glad he suffered a brutal and humiliating death. He brought misery and pain to tens of thousands. I realise mine is not a sophisticated response - but it's my reaction.

I fully understand your sentiments, and must admit I felt the same way at first.

However these are the guys we have backed and we are relying on to justify the cash we pumped into getting rid of Gadaffi. A civilised government would have put him on trial and executed him.

And your reaction is the right one.

Backing rebel fighters is never going to produce an elegant solution.

I have to say the sight of war criminals from Bosnia or even from Nazi Germany, being wheeled into court and using Human Rights legislation to delay proceedings and to protect themselves is sickening to me and must be even more appalling to victims.

[0a]

NDA said:

0a said:

NDA said:

I know I'm wrong to say it, but I'm sort of glad he suffered a brutal and humiliating death. He brought misery and pain to tens of thousands. I realise mine is not a sophisticated response - but it's my reaction.

I fully understand your sentiments, and must admit I felt the same way at first.

However these are the guys we have backed and we are relying on to justify the cash we pumped into getting rid of Gadaffi. A civilised government would have put him on trial and executed him.

And your reaction is the right one.

Backing rebel fighters is never going to produce an elegant solution.

I have to say the sight of war criminals from Bosnia or even from Nazi Germany, being wheeled into court and using Human Rights legislation to delay proceedings and to protect themselves is sickening to me and must be even more appalling to victims.

I'd add Kim Jong Il- the second North Korean leader to starve millions and yet die in his bed.

I recently finished reading a book on the de-nazification of Germany and as I'm sure you know there was a massive amount of botching that went on there. Some initial proposals called for millions of Nazis to be lined up and shot in the late 40s. So many "got away" or were allowed to argue their case when their victims couldn't.

Back on topic- at some point a country needs to move from power/killing/revenge to a real government, this needs acceptance of some kind of procedure. The story I quoted above just makes Gadaffi look like a victim of bunch of gangsters who happened to be on the right side.

By what I hear from people familiar with Libya this is a pretty poor reflection on the people of Libya.

To be clear I agree that it's sickening to watch and I can't imagine what the families of victims feel like watching what I suggest above.

Edited by 0a on Tuesday 3rd January 18:22

[NDA]

0a said:

I. The story I quoted above just makes Gadaffi look like a victim of bunch of gangsters who happened to be on the right side.

.

This is, of course, exactly what has happened. I might even venture to say the word 'right' in your summary is questionable.

It's a complete mess.

[bobbylondonuk]

Ive said this before.....all these dictatorships of libya, egypt, iraq etc run on the principle of

I have the balls, brains to run the country for the wider benefit. In return, you do as I say.

In all these places...you see a pattern of high public spending on the people, but zero individual freedom of expression against the establishment. It is a trade off or a price you pay. Sure there is corruption...but that is prevalent in a democratic society albeit on a lesser scale.

Now the situation is that you do not have a figure of authority and fear. The public spending will not be as good as before, people have freedoms and therefore the retaliation against authorities will mean a destabilised government that cannot really control what is happening.

I am not justifying the brutality of the dictators...just pointing out the 2 sides of the equation.

[Victor McDade]

RichyBoy said:

Nothing on libya in the news for ages, are the people living in peace and harmony now?

They've been shooting each other dead today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-16395533

[0a]

NDA said:

This is, of course, exactly what has happened. I might even venture to say the word 'right' in your summary is questionable.

It's a complete mess.

Shall we settle on "winning for the moment" then?

[DonkeyApple]

NDA said:

And your reaction is the right one.

Backing rebel fighters is never going to produce an elegant solution.

I have to say the sight of war criminals from Bosnia or even from Nazi Germany, being wheeled into court and using Human Rights legislation to delay proceedings and to protect themselves is sickening to me and must be even more appalling to victims.

Indeed.

I think also that there is a notable difference between catching someone who has been on the run for years and a leader who in essence is captured during the ending of a civil war.

In that latter I would argue that it is absolutely essential to kill such a person as swiftly as possible. It will save countless lives in a civil conflict by bringing it to a close earlier and removes the significant risk of future uprisings. In my eyes it would be barbaric not to kill them the moment they are caught.

In the former case where they are arrested in their bed years after then more civilised laws must pertain and to deny a trial would be murder.

[MX7]

What were people expecting? Of course there will be a period of turmoil, but I still think that the possibility of a democratic country is preferable to a despot.