No more cash for scrap - good thing?
Poll: No more cash for scrap - good thing?
Total Members Polled: 238
Discussion
Marf said:
Let me misread your post and reply incorrectly.
No wait, I can't be arsed
Alright let me put it another way. No wait, I can't be arsed
It is not a lead it is just reinforcement of evidence. Receiving money, however it is taken, is not and will not be an illegal act so they will have to act on the existing evidence in the first place for this to be of any use to them at all.
As they don't bother using that evidence at the moment to investigate, how are they going to benefit from this change?
For exactly the same reasons that they don't follow up on cash card fraud. They don't see it as their problem. Cash card is insured, Building site is insured.
Their argument is that they don't have the resources to follow up building site theft which is why the majority of building site thefts don't even get reported.
Problem is we the consumer pays at the end of the day.
As I said further up there is plenty of legislation there if the police / authorities want to solve the problem, they can shut the scrapyard down as a receiver of stolen goods if they really want to, but that's not what this about. This is purely about a load of politicians trying to score points rather than actually addressing the problem.
Their argument is that they don't have the resources to follow up building site theft which is why the majority of building site thefts don't even get reported.
Problem is we the consumer pays at the end of the day.
As I said further up there is plenty of legislation there if the police / authorities want to solve the problem, they can shut the scrapyard down as a receiver of stolen goods if they really want to, but that's not what this about. This is purely about a load of politicians trying to score points rather than actually addressing the problem.
MOTORVATOR said:
Pointless exercise. The legislation already exists, and has for 15 years odd, in the form of the Environmental Protection Act to show full traceability.
If they really wanted to shut down the theft of metals business they could do so very easily by having a campaign by the EA in association with the police instead of poncing around with some of the other less important stuff they do.
This smacks more of a tax revenue raising exercise rather than what it's dressed up as.
The EA are too scared to confront the dodgy people, they just concentrate on harrasing the legitimate operators. You've hit the nail on the head with the tax angle.If they really wanted to shut down the theft of metals business they could do so very easily by having a campaign by the EA in association with the police instead of poncing around with some of the other less important stuff they do.
This smacks more of a tax revenue raising exercise rather than what it's dressed up as.
supersingle said:
The cash economy exists because taxes are too high. It's a safety valve. Reduce taxes enough and it'll disappear.
The rich avoid high taxes by going offshore, becoming nondoms or setting up myriad other complicated tax avoidance schemes.
The poor turn to cash.
I suspect you read too many tabloids. The rich avoid high taxes by going offshore, becoming nondoms or setting up myriad other complicated tax avoidance schemes.
The poor turn to cash.
Anyway, leaving the super rich to one side that leaves 99.9% of the population most of whom pay tax on what they earn.
The remainder are breaking the law and stealing from the tax payer.
Taxes are not at all too high in the UK. The first chunk of income is tax free and the next up to nearly £40k is at just over 20%.
Not really a sensible arguement I'm afraid. Especially on the reasons I stated.
MOTORVATOR said:
You seem to be the missing the point.
As someone who has experienced several instances of theft of extremely large volumes of cable and passed on the CCTV footage of villians actually sitting in the road for hours on end stripping the gear, whilst their mates load it into the vehicles with number plates on display and even tracing the point of disposal, I can tell you there is no wish to utilise existing legislation to curb this type of theft.
If they give you a crime number on a building site that is a tick in their box and then you can claim on insurance ok.
Now how is this latest media hype going to change that in any way at all?
If they can follow the money it means they stand a chance of a conviction so all of a sudden it becomes worth doing. As someone who has experienced several instances of theft of extremely large volumes of cable and passed on the CCTV footage of villians actually sitting in the road for hours on end stripping the gear, whilst their mates load it into the vehicles with number plates on display and even tracing the point of disposal, I can tell you there is no wish to utilise existing legislation to curb this type of theft.
If they give you a crime number on a building site that is a tick in their box and then you can claim on insurance ok.
Now how is this latest media hype going to change that in any way at all?
At the moment they cannot get the evidence required for a conviction unless they catch them red handed so sadly it is foolish to waste valuable manpower.
As it doesn't criminalise anyone but the criminals lets get it done and see if it delivers.
DonkeyApple said:
If they can follow the money it means they stand a chance of a conviction so all of a sudden it becomes worth doing.
At the moment they cannot get the evidence required for a conviction unless they catch them red handed so sadly it is foolish to waste valuable manpower.
As it doesn't criminalise anyone but the criminals lets get it done and see if it delivers.
So if they can't convict if they don't catch them red handed how will they convict on the evidence of a bank transaction? They dealers know what they are buying so nothing will change, they'll still buy stolen goods but just pay for it in a different way. If the police cant be bothered to follow up on hard evidence they get now do you really think they'll go to all the expense of trying to trace money via bank accounts?At the moment they cannot get the evidence required for a conviction unless they catch them red handed so sadly it is foolish to waste valuable manpower.
As it doesn't criminalise anyone but the criminals lets get it done and see if it delivers.
jagracer said:
o if they can't convict if they don't catch them red handed how will they convict on the evidence of a bank transaction? They dealers know what they are buying so nothing will change, they'll still buy stolen goods but just pay for it in a different way. If the police cant be bothered to follow up on hard evidence they get now do you really think they'll go to all the expense of trying to trace money via bank accounts?
It's up the CPS to simply request the bank data for the few days that the fencing of te stolen goods is alleged to have occurred and use the evidence to put a stronger arguement to a magistrate or jury. The route to good convictions is to follow the money. Once it is electronic then you have hard data. When cash there is nothing you can really do.
Obviously this isn't going to stop chaps like the Noys etc but it would make scrappies wonder whether dealing with a known oik for a few quid was worth their while. And it's the oiks nicking off building sites, farms, churches and railways that we would like to be curtailed.
For example, police in Glos know which scrappies are taking the goods from when the travellers pass through several times a year. This way they can pull down transactions and actually stand a chance of a successful prosecution.
DonkeyApple said:
I suspect you read too many tabloids.
Anyway, leaving the super rich to one side that leaves 99.9% of the population most of whom pay tax on what they earn.
The remainder are breaking the law and stealing from the tax payer.
Taxes are not at all too high in the UK. The first chunk of income is tax free and the next up to nearly £40k is at just over 20%.
Not really a sensible arguement I'm afraid. Especially on the reasons I stated.
Stop it you're embarrassing yourself.Anyway, leaving the super rich to one side that leaves 99.9% of the population most of whom pay tax on what they earn.
The remainder are breaking the law and stealing from the tax payer.
Taxes are not at all too high in the UK. The first chunk of income is tax free and the next up to nearly £40k is at just over 20%.
Not really a sensible arguement I'm afraid. Especially on the reasons I stated.
Tax isn't 20% it's 20% plus NI contributions plus employer NI contributions, so getting on for 40% for most basic taxpayers. That's before they've spent anything on fuel, cigs, insurance, drink, council tax or rent.
I dread to think what a high tax economy is like!
This is great imo. The amount of hassle I've had this past year down to metal theft, copper specifically. During the summer it was nearly a daily occurance that the alarm at our empty factory was going off due to break in's.
Fences were broken to gain entry, Doors were kicked in etc. Even after we patched everything up, fitted extra locks, put barbed wire on the fences etc they'd still find ways in. They were so determined to strip the buildings of their copper wiring that they got on the roof and ripped up that up to get in. They even took bricks out of the walls and ripped out the dust extraction pipe work to get through.
It's caused £1000's worth of damage to building and the electrics, they've only stopped because the guys that are doing it know that there's not much else in there to strip out.
The police too don't do anything except write you out a useless crime report. Vigilante justice seems ever so tempting but it'd just come back to bite me in the ass in the end.
Fences were broken to gain entry, Doors were kicked in etc. Even after we patched everything up, fitted extra locks, put barbed wire on the fences etc they'd still find ways in. They were so determined to strip the buildings of their copper wiring that they got on the roof and ripped up that up to get in. They even took bricks out of the walls and ripped out the dust extraction pipe work to get through.
It's caused £1000's worth of damage to building and the electrics, they've only stopped because the guys that are doing it know that there's not much else in there to strip out.
The police too don't do anything except write you out a useless crime report. Vigilante justice seems ever so tempting but it'd just come back to bite me in the ass in the end.
My thoughts from the other scrap metal thread:
At the end of the day to fix the problem will require stricter laws for the scrap dealers to work to.
No cash transactions.
If check is isssued by scrap dealer, has to be non-endorsable to the seller, as per their DL or ID.
Bearing in mind the ideas of the banks to reduce checks being used:
Bank transfer of funds from scrap dealer to seller. So no bank account, no sale.
Copy of driver's license or ID at point of sale.
All sales electronically controled buy standard (i.e all dealers use the same system)point-of-sale system.
If it needs to get that strict to stop the problem.
At the end of the day to fix the problem will require stricter laws for the scrap dealers to work to.
No cash transactions.
If check is isssued by scrap dealer, has to be non-endorsable to the seller, as per their DL or ID.
Bearing in mind the ideas of the banks to reduce checks being used:
Bank transfer of funds from scrap dealer to seller. So no bank account, no sale.
Copy of driver's license or ID at point of sale.
All sales electronically controled buy standard (i.e all dealers use the same system)point-of-sale system.
If it needs to get that strict to stop the problem.
supersingle said:
Stop it you're embarrassing yourself.
Tax isn't 20% it's 20% plus NI contributions plus employer NI contributions, so getting on for 40% for most basic taxpayers. That's before they've spent anything on fuel, cigs, insurance, drink, council tax or rent.
I dread to think what a high tax economy is like!
Tax is low here. Most people are not net payers but those who work hard and pay into the pot need to be protected from thieves who do not. Tax isn't 20% it's 20% plus NI contributions plus employer NI contributions, so getting on for 40% for most basic taxpayers. That's before they've spent anything on fuel, cigs, insurance, drink, council tax or rent.
I dread to think what a high tax economy is like!
You cannot rationalise what is theft and one can only hope that this small move will lead to others that start to screw all those who are stealing from everyone else.
I do like the idea of nice juicy cash bungs in these hard times for good tip offs that lead to someone being taken for back tax and ripping off benefits
These types of jubs tend to be at the lower end of their professions in terms of skill so it'll be doing everyone a favour to stop them stealing.
supersingle said:
Last time I did a bank transfer it took me 15 minutes on the phone to someone in Bangalore who spoke only broken English.
Cash is the only legal tender. It's fast and efficient and works well for small transactions. Making it illegal is absurd.
They need to work out a 'reverse' contactless payment system then,, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_paymentCash is the only legal tender. It's fast and efficient and works well for small transactions. Making it illegal is absurd.
I never have an issue at B&Q, etc when they recredit my credit or debit card, is it really that hard, if 'thieves' etc don't carry a 'card' to accept payments that will be their 'business' loss.
thinfourth2 said:
How will making it illegal for me to take scrap from my workshop and get paid cash stop them?
Maybe it wouldn't be such a personal issue for you if you stopped trying to fix perfectly functional kit in your workshop, thereby turning the hitherto functional kit into scrap almost immediately....Bodger Boy. 
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