Chavez is dead
Discussion
Art0ir said:
JagLover said:
Art0ir said:
I never understand the animosity towards him on here. No one actually buys the "But, but, but Dermocracy dur?" line from the US any more surely?
Because he has destroyed his economy (a high oil price is partly masking this for now) and set up an elective dictatorship perhaps?The left will eulogise him, as they do all left wing dictators and wannabe dictators, but that doesn’t mean we should. Yes he did set up some social programmes to help the poor, but so have the Brazilians and they haven’t destroyed the private sector while doing it.
So he was a socialist. It's hardly rare to see them in South America, certainly not since the yanks were kicked out. His approval ratings were still well over 50% amongst the populace, so what's the problem?
... thought not
alfaman said:
Art0ir said:
JagLover said:
Art0ir said:
I never understand the animosity towards him on here. No one actually buys the "But, but, but Dermocracy dur?" line from the US any more surely?
Because he has destroyed his economy (a high oil price is partly masking this for now) and set up an elective dictatorship perhaps?The left will eulogise him, as they do all left wing dictators and wannabe dictators, but that doesn’t mean we should. Yes he did set up some social programmes to help the poor, but so have the Brazilians and they haven’t destroyed the private sector while doing it.
So he was a socialist. It's hardly rare to see them in South America, certainly not since the yanks were kicked out. His approval ratings were still well over 50% amongst the populace, so what's the problem?
... thought not
I'm out.
JagLover said:
Because he has destroyed his economy (a high oil price is partly masking this for now) and set up an elective dictatorship perhaps?
The left will eulogise him, as they do all left wing dictators and wannabe dictators, but that doesn’t mean we should. Yes he did set up some social programmes to help the poor, but so have the Brazilians and they haven’t destroyed the private sector while doing it.
Your opinion seems to be in direct contrast to that of hundreds of thousands of venezuelans who have taken to the streets to support him, who have voted him into power, who have overturned a right wing coup against him. It also seems to be an opinion not shared by the other S.American states who have formed strong alliances with Venezuela.The left will eulogise him, as they do all left wing dictators and wannabe dictators, but that doesn’t mean we should. Yes he did set up some social programmes to help the poor, but so have the Brazilians and they haven’t destroyed the private sector while doing it.
Do you mean he hasn't rolled over for the rich? That he has taxed their businesses ? Do you mean he wasn't capitalistic enough for you ?
Not a bad statement from Carter:
tters.
EX-US President Jimmy Carter said:
"We came to know a man who expressed a vision to bring profound changes to his country to benefit especially those people who had felt neglected and marginalized":
Although we have not agreed with all of the methods followed by his government, we have never doubted Hugo Chávez's commitment to improving the lives of millions of his fellow countrymen.
President Chávez will be remembered for his bold assertion of autonomy and independence for Latin American governments and for his formidable communication skills and personal connection with supporters in his country and abroad to whom he gave hope and empowerment. During his 14-year tenure, Chávez joined other leaders in Latin America and the Caribbean to create new forms of integration. Venezuelan poverty rates were cut in half, and millions received identification documents for the first time allowing them to participate more effectively in their country's economic and political life.
At the same time, we recognize the divisions created in the drive towards change in Venezuela and the need for national healing. We hope that as Venezuelans mourn the passing of President Chávez and recall his positive legacies — especially the gains made for the poor and vulnerable — the political leaders will move the country forward by building a new consensus that ensures equal opportunities for all Venezuelans to participate in every aspect of national life.
A bit more realistic than the PH bullsAlthough we have not agreed with all of the methods followed by his government, we have never doubted Hugo Chávez's commitment to improving the lives of millions of his fellow countrymen.
President Chávez will be remembered for his bold assertion of autonomy and independence for Latin American governments and for his formidable communication skills and personal connection with supporters in his country and abroad to whom he gave hope and empowerment. During his 14-year tenure, Chávez joined other leaders in Latin America and the Caribbean to create new forms of integration. Venezuelan poverty rates were cut in half, and millions received identification documents for the first time allowing them to participate more effectively in their country's economic and political life.
At the same time, we recognize the divisions created in the drive towards change in Venezuela and the need for national healing. We hope that as Venezuelans mourn the passing of President Chávez and recall his positive legacies — especially the gains made for the poor and vulnerable — the political leaders will move the country forward by building a new consensus that ensures equal opportunities for all Venezuelans to participate in every aspect of national life.
tters.Fishtigua said:
The bd ruined the country, killed business and strangled free speech. The elections should throw up some truths about how much money has blindly pissed up the wall on his mindless socialist programs. He was a nutter in the true sense of the word.
So, South Americas Tony Blair/Gordon Brown?!?!?d ruined the country, killed business and strangled free speech. The elections should throw up some truths about how much money has blindly pissed up the wall on his mindless socialist programs. He was a nutter in the true sense of the word.MarshPhantom said:
Fishtigua said:
Good fking riddance.
Nice.king riddance. Shortly after, his henchmen made it impossible to carry on running a foreign owned business. This even got so bad, armed secret police used to hang around and question workers and suppliers. We packed the fishing business in, sold the boat and left the crew without jobs. The last time I saw the Leading Hand, the only job he could get was as a Watchman in a government carpark. That's progress in Chavez's eyes.
Art0ir said:
So he was a socialist. It's hardly rare to see them in South America, certainly not since the yanks were kicked out. His approval ratings were still well over 50% amongst the populace, so what's the problem?
Western democracy or the highway (unless of course you are Saudi Arabia).Muntu said:
^^Jimmy Carter's foreign affairs credentials have declined considerably since he left office. They were pretty dire while he as president.
No. They are pretty dire amongst the OMG it's someone who doesn't believe big business will solve everything and the free market is the saviour of us all crowd. Not amongst everyone.
Colonial said:
Muntu said:
^^Jimmy Carter's foreign affairs credentials have declined considerably since he left office. They were pretty dire while he as president.
No. They are pretty dire amongst the OMG it's someone who doesn't believe big business will solve everything and the free market is the saviour of us all crowd. Not amongst everyone.
as far as foreign affairs goes.Fishtigua said:
When I worked there, we employed loads of local guys who were getting a decent wage and learning more skills. They unfortunately voted for him. Asked why, they said they felt they could invite him to their home and feel comfortable with him. He had the populist touch down well.
Shortly after, his henchmen made it impossible to carry on running a foreign owned business. This even got so bad, armed secret police used to hang around and question workers and suppliers. We packed the fishing business in, sold the boat and left the crew without jobs. The last time I saw the Leading Hand, the only job he could get was as a Watchman in a government carpark. That's progress in Chavez's eyes.
I've had the usual rubbish turn up on Facebook but one pretty much sums the situation up and largely agrees with the above.Shortly after, his henchmen made it impossible to carry on running a foreign owned business. This even got so bad, armed secret police used to hang around and question workers and suppliers. We packed the fishing business in, sold the boat and left the crew without jobs. The last time I saw the Leading Hand, the only job he could get was as a Watchman in a government carpark. That's progress in Chavez's eyes.
Mate on Facebook said:
My view is not based on the fact that he's not privatised the oil, nor that he flips the bird to the US (i quite like that), even though he happily exports the oil to them. Its that he's turned the country into a welfare state, reliant on his 'grace', with a crime and murder rate to compete with any of the world's most dangerous places - those millions are still very much enslaved by poverty. He's completely messed up the economy for any Venezuelan to get a job (other than to aspire to be a paper shuffler in the massive bureaucratic government machine, or join the army, of course)
People are not able to drag themselves out of this poverty. The faux universities he's built are not up to any standard - teaching specialist areas like medicine ffs. There is a black market on US $ which people snap up to get a currency which does not inflate at 30-80% any given year, and once they have 'enough', they leave. His entire economic strategy is that he gets oil out of the ground, he's not developed any other part of their national talents - and he still managed to rack up some mad foreign debt.
Educated people are leaving Venezuela by the droves, leaving behind a poor population who believe the 'Bolivarian Revolution' will suddenly deliver them into a better life. And to round it off, he had such a high opinion of himself that he would alter, or attempt to alter the constitution as he saw fit (seemingly empowered by masses of followers who actually don't understand the implications of such changes).
People are not able to drag themselves out of this poverty. The faux universities he's built are not up to any standard - teaching specialist areas like medicine ffs. There is a black market on US $ which people snap up to get a currency which does not inflate at 30-80% any given year, and once they have 'enough', they leave. His entire economic strategy is that he gets oil out of the ground, he's not developed any other part of their national talents - and he still managed to rack up some mad foreign debt.
Educated people are leaving Venezuela by the droves, leaving behind a poor population who believe the 'Bolivarian Revolution' will suddenly deliver them into a better life. And to round it off, he had such a high opinion of himself that he would alter, or attempt to alter the constitution as he saw fit (seemingly empowered by masses of followers who actually don't understand the implications of such changes).
jurbie said:
Fishtigua said:
When I worked there, we employed loads of local guys who were getting a decent wage and learning more skills. They unfortunately voted for him. Asked why, they said they felt they could invite him to their home and feel comfortable with him. He had the populist touch down well.
Shortly after, his henchmen made it impossible to carry on running a foreign owned business. This even got so bad, armed secret police used to hang around and question workers and suppliers. We packed the fishing business in, sold the boat and left the crew without jobs. The last time I saw the Leading Hand, the only job he could get was as a Watchman in a government carpark. That's progress in Chavez's eyes.
I've had the usual rubbish turn up on Facebook but one pretty much sums the situation up and largely agrees with the above.Shortly after, his henchmen made it impossible to carry on running a foreign owned business. This even got so bad, armed secret police used to hang around and question workers and suppliers. We packed the fishing business in, sold the boat and left the crew without jobs. The last time I saw the Leading Hand, the only job he could get was as a Watchman in a government carpark. That's progress in Chavez's eyes.
Mate on Facebook said:
My view is not based on the fact that he's not privatised the oil, nor that he flips the bird to the US (i quite like that), even though he happily exports the oil to them. Its that he's turned the country into a welfare state, reliant on his 'grace', with a crime and murder rate to compete with any of the world's most dangerous places - those millions are still very much enslaved by poverty. He's completely messed up the economy for any Venezuelan to get a job (other than to aspire to be a paper shuffler in the massive bureaucratic government machine, or join the army, of course)
People are not able to drag themselves out of this poverty. The faux universities he's built are not up to any standard - teaching specialist areas like medicine ffs. There is a black market on US $ which people snap up to get a currency which does not inflate at 30-80% any given year, and once they have 'enough', they leave. His entire economic strategy is that he gets oil out of the ground, he's not developed any other part of their national talents - and he still managed to rack up some mad foreign debt.
Educated people are leaving Venezuela by the droves, leaving behind a poor population who believe the 'Bolivarian Revolution' will suddenly deliver them into a better life. And to round it off, he had such a high opinion of himself that he would alter, or attempt to alter the constitution as he saw fit (seemingly empowered by masses of followers who actually don't understand the implications of such changes).
People are not able to drag themselves out of this poverty. The faux universities he's built are not up to any standard - teaching specialist areas like medicine ffs. There is a black market on US $ which people snap up to get a currency which does not inflate at 30-80% any given year, and once they have 'enough', they leave. His entire economic strategy is that he gets oil out of the ground, he's not developed any other part of their national talents - and he still managed to rack up some mad foreign debt.
Educated people are leaving Venezuela by the droves, leaving behind a poor population who believe the 'Bolivarian Revolution' will suddenly deliver them into a better life. And to round it off, he had such a high opinion of himself that he would alter, or attempt to alter the constitution as he saw fit (seemingly empowered by masses of followers who actually don't understand the implications of such changes).
Saddle bum said:
From the BBC's reaction and wildly extended coverage, you would think a major World player had kicked it. But as he was a rabid socialist, I suppose the BBC's mourning is proportional.
I did a long drive overnight with BBC World Service trying to find as many talking heads as they could that didn't think he was an economically illiterate buffoon. One guy managed to slip in that Chavez may have helped the poor, but that running a permanent 15% deficit in a country floating on oil wasn't in the country's best interests.
What struck me was the number of commentators/vox pops that saw him primarily as being against the USA, rather than being for anything domestic. Very odd way of looking at the world.
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