Birmingham Transport Plan, remove parking spaces
Discussion
MBBlat said:
Sorry but my motoring dream does not include sitting in miles of heavy traffic before having to hunt for an expensive parking space. Give me an open traffic free B-road instead.
I much prefer driving outside town than inside myself, but for those things that are offered in the centre, such as shops and pubs, if you make it more difficult to drive there then less people will go. You could of course have a few pedestrian only zones in the very centre, but if so have a good clear access road to a carpark nearby. I don't mind a ten minute walk through a pedestrianised zone, but I am not getting on a bus unless by absolute necessity.
alangla said:
Glasgow is now a ghost town during the day thanks to this sort of s
t, but the shopping centres and retail parks on the edges are insanely busy. Be careful what you wish for.
Funnily enough I immediately thought of Glasgow when I read the post. t, but the shopping centres and retail parks on the edges are insanely busy. Be careful what you wish for.The city center isn't dead but it is not retail that is driving it any more. The only reason I visit regularly is because I cycle in. Most people aren't cyclists and like it or not people want to drive 20 minutes and park not wait at a bus stop for 20 minutes then sit in an uncomfortable bus for 50 minutes.
I get free bus travel and haved used it once in the past year. When getting my car serviced.
Edited by irc on Tuesday 23 January 06:15
Something taken for granted that the car affords, wrongly attributed to simply being lazy, is impulse.
Many visits to a high street / town centre are impulsive. Not necessarily completely random but a “lets see what happens” type of impulse. For example we recently had to pop to the local town centre for a single purchase but ended up there for hours including lunch and coffee etc. not planned. If we had to plan ahead with a park and ride that is too infrequent and finishes too early, we would not have gone. Such trips might still happen, but probably once a year vs. once a month.
Take that away and you are taking away a good portion of the footfall that drives the local retail economy.
Ironically the idea of zones and prohibitions against driving across them is one that was suggested in that same town centre. The local council subsequently dumped out of power in the locals elections.
Given the mandated transition to electric cars, it cannot be about emissions, so why not focus on making traffic flow better, parking more available and better thought out. How does forcing all traffic along a single trunk road and ring road make sense, surely it will make things worse.
I guess zones can have boundaries, and boundaries can have cameras, and cameras can enforce charges and fines.
Many visits to a high street / town centre are impulsive. Not necessarily completely random but a “lets see what happens” type of impulse. For example we recently had to pop to the local town centre for a single purchase but ended up there for hours including lunch and coffee etc. not planned. If we had to plan ahead with a park and ride that is too infrequent and finishes too early, we would not have gone. Such trips might still happen, but probably once a year vs. once a month.
Take that away and you are taking away a good portion of the footfall that drives the local retail economy.
Ironically the idea of zones and prohibitions against driving across them is one that was suggested in that same town centre. The local council subsequently dumped out of power in the locals elections.
Given the mandated transition to electric cars, it cannot be about emissions, so why not focus on making traffic flow better, parking more available and better thought out. How does forcing all traffic along a single trunk road and ring road make sense, surely it will make things worse.
I guess zones can have boundaries, and boundaries can have cameras, and cameras can enforce charges and fines.
The problem with pedestrianisation in many areas is that they become ghost towns at night. Sure the central district where restaurants, bars and clubs are will be busy, but everywhere else will nosedive. Outlying areas such as Harborne with parking and lots of nice bars and restaurants will thrive.
What would I do? I would ban all Uber drivers in Birmingham to speed up traffic.
What would I do? I would ban all Uber drivers in Birmingham to speed up traffic.
Quhet said:
FiF said:
In principle I don't disagree with the view that public transport has to match. Currently the public transport in Birmingham wouod have to improve significantly.
As for the public transport in the surrounding areas who commute into Birmingham, that has to improve by many factors more than the City network. From Worcester, Droitwich Bromsgrove, Ledbury, Malvern, Bewdley, Wyre Forest, Hagley. Just to name things coming from one direction. These have, pretty much rural transport networks, made worse by unreliability.
It's a major task, needs more than Birmingham on its own can cope with.
That's where park and ride comes in. Like it or not, it's fairly straightforward to drive to a station like Selly Oak, King's Norton, Longbridge etc and then get the train in. Its what hundreds if not thousands do everyday for workAs for the public transport in the surrounding areas who commute into Birmingham, that has to improve by many factors more than the City network. From Worcester, Droitwich Bromsgrove, Ledbury, Malvern, Bewdley, Wyre Forest, Hagley. Just to name things coming from one direction. These have, pretty much rural transport networks, made worse by unreliability.
It's a major task, needs more than Birmingham on its own can cope with.
The alternative is the retail parks which welcome cars.
In a few years time the council will be lamenting the decline of its high street.
menousername said:
Something taken for granted that the car affords, wrongly attributed to simply being lazy, is impulse.
Many visits to a high street / town centre are impulsive. Not necessarily completely random but a “lets see what happens” type of impulse. For example we recently had to pop to the local town centre for a single purchase but ended up there for hours including lunch and coffee etc. not planned. If we had to plan ahead with a park and ride that is too infrequent and finishes too early, we would not have gone. Such trips might still happen, but probably once a year vs. once a month.
Take that away and you are taking away a good portion of the footfall that drives the local retail economy.
When it comes to impulse, we are the opposite. We have fairly decent public transport links, and when we go to town, we take the bus/train and leave the car, allowing me to have a beer or bit of dinner and not clock-watch worrying about parking charges.Many visits to a high street / town centre are impulsive. Not necessarily completely random but a “lets see what happens” type of impulse. For example we recently had to pop to the local town centre for a single purchase but ended up there for hours including lunch and coffee etc. not planned. If we had to plan ahead with a park and ride that is too infrequent and finishes too early, we would not have gone. Such trips might still happen, but probably once a year vs. once a month.
Take that away and you are taking away a good portion of the footfall that drives the local retail economy.
The car is used to pop in and out of town on a set task.
It’s a given that something needs to be done, because it has become gridlocked due to traffic.
I live south of the city, approximately 8 miles drive by car, as I have to work at BCU in Aston several times a week, I make that journey at least twice a week.
I laugh at my SatNav estimating the journey as 15 minutes, which of course it should be, but the 8 miles takes me on average over an hour, and last Thursday evening at peak rush hour it took me 1 hour 25 minutes to drive those same 8 miles.
I do love using the train, as we are right next door to Wythall train station, which I do use most weeks to travel to Moor Street or Snow Hill stations.
Unfortunately as the main trains stop at Whitlocks end close to Shirley/Dickens heath, it does mean we only have one train an hour on the later services, which often means coming home early, or leaving my car at the car Park at Whitlock’s end station.
So whilst these plans sound extreme, something does need to be done to make commuting into the city better.
I live south of the city, approximately 8 miles drive by car, as I have to work at BCU in Aston several times a week, I make that journey at least twice a week.
I laugh at my SatNav estimating the journey as 15 minutes, which of course it should be, but the 8 miles takes me on average over an hour, and last Thursday evening at peak rush hour it took me 1 hour 25 minutes to drive those same 8 miles.
I do love using the train, as we are right next door to Wythall train station, which I do use most weeks to travel to Moor Street or Snow Hill stations.
Unfortunately as the main trains stop at Whitlocks end close to Shirley/Dickens heath, it does mean we only have one train an hour on the later services, which often means coming home early, or leaving my car at the car Park at Whitlock’s end station.
So whilst these plans sound extreme, something does need to be done to make commuting into the city better.
MBBlat said:
bigee said:
Guybrush said:
Pupp said:
Predominantly ‘motoring’ oriented forum in apparent consensus to prevent folk motoring shock horror.
Glad I’m old(ish)
It's amazing isn't it (amusing even) how easily people are brainwashed / manipulated into complying with big brother's wishes.Glad I’m old(ish)
I do identify with the sentiment here but, in many circumstances for many people, car access is necessary.
nigelpugh7 said:
So whilst these plans sound extreme, something does need to be done to make commuting into the city better.
Will it though?We have been here before with London with its supposed "congestion reducing" measures that mysteriously have seemed to reduce traffic speeds in the centre even further.
So it will become harder to drive in Birmingham, and harder and more expensive to park, and that is all.
GiantEnemyCrab said:
They've literally said they will remove free car parking in surrounding areas also. It's in the OP.
Yes, from inside the inner ring road. I have no issue with that, but they should be providing parking outside of the ring road. Off the expressway, straight into a car park, walk the rest of the way into a clean congestion free city centre. Seems perfectly logical to me.
Mrr T said:
Quhet said:
FiF said:
In principle I don't disagree with the view that public transport has to match. Currently the public transport in Birmingham wouod have to improve significantly.
As for the public transport in the surrounding areas who commute into Birmingham, that has to improve by many factors more than the City network. From Worcester, Droitwich Bromsgrove, Ledbury, Malvern, Bewdley, Wyre Forest, Hagley. Just to name things coming from one direction. These have, pretty much rural transport networks, made worse by unreliability.
It's a major task, needs more than Birmingham on its own can cope with.
That's where park and ride comes in. Like it or not, it's fairly straightforward to drive to a station like Selly Oak, King's Norton, Longbridge etc and then get the train in. Its what hundreds if not thousands do everyday for workAs for the public transport in the surrounding areas who commute into Birmingham, that has to improve by many factors more than the City network. From Worcester, Droitwich Bromsgrove, Ledbury, Malvern, Bewdley, Wyre Forest, Hagley. Just to name things coming from one direction. These have, pretty much rural transport networks, made worse by unreliability.
It's a major task, needs more than Birmingham on its own can cope with.
The alternative is the retail parks which welcome cars.
In a few years time the council will be lamenting the decline of its high street.
Yet on the other hand our nearest county seat had a Park and Ride, which we used, everyday. Both for 9-5 and weekend shopping. Yes it was awkward if carrying a few bags of stuff, but generally it was not much hassle. Finished early so no good for night economy excursions, and working late could be awkward. Service removed for financial reasons and is missed tbh. Again results in less visits, less business for the city centre.
Personally wonder if in years to come the council will look at the on street parking converted to outdoor hospitality and wonder if that decision was about as accurate as Blair's changes to licensing hours in 2002/3(?) would lead the denizens of Grimsby to sit out in pavement cafes late of an evening sipping at a Campari and Soda.
There's no doubt that city centres are changing, and have to change, including converting existing buildings and spaces to increase availability of quality housing. But it seems to me that hitting the freedom afforded by personal transport is also unfairly hitting many of low / middle income who really need that transport to carry on life.
Killboy said:
One would have thought the planners looked at the cautionary tale that is London's West End and famous shopping streets now crippled by lack of parking and exorbitant charges before deciding on a similar fate.
If other cities had London's transport network it would be a different story in many cases. You could argue that Birmingham should have had an underground network built due to its size. Wouldn't happen now of course, but back when we could actually build things at a reasonable cost. Killboy said:
One would have thought the planners looked at the cautionary tale that is London's West End and famous shopping streets now crippled by lack of parking and exorbitant charges before deciding on a similar fate.
They probably won't. Ideology and ego blinds them. As ex-market towns up and down the country can attest.I'm in London. I don't go shopping on Oxford Street. If I actually want to go shopping I drive to one of the Westfields and park. Like everyone else.
What will it take to make the grey men accept reality? Don't know. Past experience doesn't seem to work.
MrBig said:
GiantEnemyCrab said:
They've literally said they will remove free car parking in surrounding areas also. It's in the OP.
Yes, from inside the inner ring road. I have no issue with that, but they should be providing parking outside of the ring road. Off the expressway, straight into a car park, walk the rest of the way into a clean congestion free city centre. Seems perfectly logical to me.They specifically mention reviewing all parking inside and outside the ring road, extending Controlled Parking Zones remove free car parking from within the A4540 Ring Road, from neighbourhoods on the outskirts of the city centre, and from local centres. Workplace Parking Levy too.
Some proposals are definitely welcomed, eg removing and stopping parking on footways and pavements, this is a curse.
The overall headline aim is to "Manage Overall Demand through Parking Measures."
grumbledoak said:
Killboy said:
One would have thought the planners looked at the cautionary tale that is London's West End and famous shopping streets now crippled by lack of parking and exorbitant charges before deciding on a similar fate.
They probably won't. Ideology and ego blinds them. As ex-market towns up and down the country can attest.I'm in London. I don't go shopping on Oxford Street. If I actually want to go shopping I drive to one of the Westfields and park. Like everyone else.
What will it take to make the grey men accept reality? Don't know. Past experience doesn't seem to work.
nigelpugh7 said:
It’s a given that something needs to be done, because it has become gridlocked due to traffic.
I live south of the city, approximately 8 miles drive by car, as I have to work at BCU in Aston several times a week, I make that journey at least twice a week.
I laugh at my SatNav estimating the journey as 15 minutes, which of course it should be, but the 8 miles takes me on average over an hour, and last Thursday evening at peak rush hour it took me 1 hour 25 minutes to drive those same 8 miles.
So whilst these plans sound extreme, something does need to be done to make commuting into the city better.
You need a bike: pedal, e-, or motor- I live south of the city, approximately 8 miles drive by car, as I have to work at BCU in Aston several times a week, I make that journey at least twice a week.
I laugh at my SatNav estimating the journey as 15 minutes, which of course it should be, but the 8 miles takes me on average over an hour, and last Thursday evening at peak rush hour it took me 1 hour 25 minutes to drive those same 8 miles.
So whilst these plans sound extreme, something does need to be done to make commuting into the city better.
Ebike is likely the simplest/cheapest answer (conversion kits for a bike you already have cheaper than buying new), and you'll roll in sweat-free at an assisted 15mph, so about half an hour's ride. Quicker if you'd like to sweat
Type R Tom said:
grumbledoak said:
Killboy said:
One would have thought the planners looked at the cautionary tale that is London's West End and famous shopping streets now crippled by lack of parking and exorbitant charges before deciding on a similar fate.
They probably won't. Ideology and ego blinds them. As ex-market towns up and down the country can attest.I'm in London. I don't go shopping on Oxford Street. If I actually want to go shopping I drive to one of the Westfields and park. Like everyone else.
What will it take to make the grey men accept reality? Don't know. Past experience doesn't seem to work.
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