Would you vote for or against Scottish independence?

[Puggit]

s2art said:

JagLover said:

ettore said:

I'm amazed that centuries-old internecine squabbles dominate sensible thought. I though the Scottish (and English) were brighter than that.

I bear the Scots no ill will. But it is obvious we want very different things from Government. They were unhappy under Thatcher and many in England have been unhappy under Labour.

The solution is either to go our seperate ways (in an amicable split) or to have a proper devolution of powers to BOTH Scotland and England.

In what way would that be different from the current position? When you say proper devolution, what is it that needs devolving further?

Preventing Scottish MPs voting on English only matters!

Edited by Puggit on Thursday 24th September 13:01

[s2art]

Puggit said:

s2art said:

JagLover said:

ettore said:

I'm amazed that centuries-old internecine squabbles dominate sensible thought. I though the Scottish (and English) were brighter than that.

I bear the Scots no ill will. But it is obvious we want very different things from Government. They were unhappy under Thatcher and many in England have been unhappy under Labour.

The solution is either to go our seperate ways (in an amicable split) or to have a proper devolution of powers to BOTH Scotland and England.

In what way would that be different from the current position? When you say proper devolution, what is it that needs devolving further?

Preventing Scottish MPs voting on English only matters!

Edited by Puggit on Thursday 24th September 13:01

I guess, but I reckon the problem is overstated. Most decisions for England will have some impact in Scotland. Its difficult to know what will be completely isolated.

[AndrewW-G]

s2art said:

JagLover said:

ettore said:

I'm amazed that centuries-old internecine squabbles dominate sensible thought. I though the Scottish (and English) were brighter than that.

I bear the Scots no ill will. But it is obvious we want very different things from Government. They were unhappy under Thatcher and many in England have been unhappy under Labour.

The solution is either to go our seperate ways (in an amicable split) or to have a proper devolution of powers to BOTH Scotland and England.

In what way would that be different from the current position? When you say proper devolution, what is it that needs devolving further?

The complete answer to what services would need to be split would sound a little too like Pythons Life of Brian , large scale splits would be something like revenue collection, defence, social service & security, civil infrastructure etc etc etc etc.
Looking coldly at the number of things that both areas of the same island share, true devolution would be a massive and painfully slow process that would cause major issues for both England and Scotland for century’s to come.

Far easier just to sign the whole bloody lot over to the Nazis EU and have mass change for the benefit of everybody else

[s2art]

AndrewW-G said:

s2art said:

JagLover said:

ettore said:

I'm amazed that centuries-old internecine squabbles dominate sensible thought. I though the Scottish (and English) were brighter than that.

I bear the Scots no ill will. But it is obvious we want very different things from Government. They were unhappy under Thatcher and many in England have been unhappy under Labour.

The solution is either to go our seperate ways (in an amicable split) or to have a proper devolution of powers to BOTH Scotland and England.

In what way would that be different from the current position? When you say proper devolution, what is it that needs devolving further?

The complete answer to what services would need to be split would sound a little too like Pythons Life of Brian , large scale splits would be something like revenue collection, defence, social service & security, civil infrastructure etc etc etc etc.
Looking coldly at the number of things that both areas of the same island share, true devolution would be a massive and painfully slow process that would cause major issues for both England and Scotland for century’s to come.

Far easier just to sign the whole bloody lot over to the Nazis EU and have mass change for the benefit of everybody else

My point is more that most of these 'services', such as revenue collection and defence, benefit from economies of scale and can quite happily continue as they are, devolution or not. Its merely changing the status quo for an agreed contract between the two governments. In other words bugger all difference apart from an extra layer of bureaucracy.

[JagLover]

s2art said:

JagLover said:

ettore said:

I'm amazed that centuries-old internecine squabbles dominate sensible thought. I though the Scottish (and English) were brighter than that.

I bear the Scots no ill will. But it is obvious we want very different things from Government. They were unhappy under Thatcher and many in England have been unhappy under Labour.

The solution is either to go our seperate ways (in an amicable split) or to have a proper devolution of powers to BOTH Scotland and England.

In what way would that be different from the current position? When you say proper devolution, what is it that needs devolving further?

The biggest problem with British government is over centralisation. There are many powers currently held by Whitehall that need to be devolved to the lowest level possible.

In terms of devolution, despite the powers devolved to the Scottish assembly, it remains the case that American states have more power than the parliment of an ancient nation. As for England Labour's half hearted reforms have left us with the West Lothian question.

There is no reason that I can see why Health, education, policing, most transport policy, most revenue raising etc should be determined by a UK body, rather than national assemblies for England, Wales, Scotland & NI. Or indeed more local bodies than that.

[JagLover]

s2art said:

My point is more that most of these 'services', such as revenue collection and defence, benefit from economies of scale and can quite happily continue as they are, devolution or not.

There is not much point remaining as a "united Kingdom" if defence is not still a joint enterprise.

[s2art]

JagLover said:

s2art said:

JagLover said:

ettore said:

I'm amazed that centuries-old internecine squabbles dominate sensible thought. I though the Scottish (and English) were brighter than that.

I bear the Scots no ill will. But it is obvious we want very different things from Government. They were unhappy under Thatcher and many in England have been unhappy under Labour.

The solution is either to go our seperate ways (in an amicable split) or to have a proper devolution of powers to BOTH Scotland and England.

In what way would that be different from the current position? When you say proper devolution, what is it that needs devolving further?

The biggest problem with British government is over centralisation. There are many powers currently held by Whitehall that need to be devolved to the lowest level possible.

In terms of devolution, despite the powers devolved to the Scottish assembly, it remains the case that American states have more power than the parliment of an ancient nation. As for England Labour's half hearted reforms have left us with the West Lothian question.

There is no reason that I can see why Health, education, policing, most transport policy, most revenue raising etc should be determined by a UK body, rather than national assemblies for England, Wales, Scotland & NI. Or indeed more local bodies than that.

Because given the commonalities between the home nations it makes sense to have a coherent approach to many of those things. If every little parish was doing its own thing WRT to health, roads, revenue collection etc just how big a 'public sector' would we end up with?
I think the real problem is inefficiencies in public or monopolistic bodies, and I doubt that fragmenting things into a zillion little bodies would improve the shining hour.
That is not to say that some centralisation should not be reversed, but its not all functions of state that would benefit from being dispersed. Look at how incompetent local councils are now, imagine giving them more power.

[JagLover]

s2art said:

Look at how incompetent local councils are now, imagine giving them more power.

Local councils can afford to be incompetent due to a) how little a proportion of their revenue is raised locally and b) (and linked to the first) how low the turnout is in local government elections.

[s2art]

JagLover said:

s2art said:

Look at how incompetent local councils are now, imagine giving them more power.

Local councils can afford to be incompetent due to a) how little a proportion of their revenue is raised locally and b) (and linked to the first) how low the turnout is in local government elections.

Sure, but you missed out the quality of people making the decisions. Its difficult to see that changing.

[Pooh]

s2art said:

JagLover said:

s2art said:

Look at how incompetent local councils are now, imagine giving them more power.

Local councils can afford to be incompetent due to a) how little a proportion of their revenue is raised locally and b) (and linked to the first) how low the turnout is in local government elections.

Sure, but you missed out the quality of people making the decisions. Its difficult to see that changing.

The only way that will change is if being a local councillor pays enough to be a proper job rather than a hobby for the retired. I was asked to stand as a Conservative councillor but there is no way I could afford to do it.

[Horse_Apple]

Gedon said:

If Scotland pull out of the UK, you will see the Welsh do likewise.

As a Cornishman, I am not English and refuse to be bracketed as such.

I am pro GB at the moment.

Strange, you must be the first Cornishman not to enjoy a serious ‘Bracketing’

[Horse_Apple]

I think a more valid option would be:

To allow the people of Scotlandistan, the latest member of the US Axis of Evil, to choose for themselves. Such a decision is for the Scots and the Scots only to take. Nowt to do with anyone else, really.

Judging by this poll it would mean remaining as is, which I suspect is the general consensus by most bar the jingoistic loonies that pollute every corner of every country.

[JagLover]

s2art said:

Sure, but you missed out the quality of people making the decisions.

True enough

However i'm not making a claim purely to devolve powers to local councils. In some areas power could be taken away from them and devolved down further. A voucher system in education for example would take power away from councils and give it to parents and schools.

What I am saying is that as well as the arguments for efficiency (though I believe moving away from a centralised model would increase efficiency) there is the great benefit of allowing people to be governed by politicians who represent their interests. This is not only a right wing complaint after all the Scots wanted their own assembly partly as a result of being governed by a government inimical to the beliefs of a majority of the population.

The UK is fairly unique in the western world in the degree of centralisation of its government. This has been the fault of governments of the right nearly as much as of the left.

[Parrot of Doom]

If they want to leave, let them. Speeding fines for Englishmen and Welshmen will become unenforceable.

[cazzer]

I would let em go happily.
Then repeatedly veto Scotlands entry into the EU, Just for the fun of it.
Oh, and close the border

Edited by cazzer on Thursday 24th September 18:10

[Jalopnik]

One island, one nation, one government, one set of laws - scrap both the Scottish and Welsh governments and move Parliament to the centre of the country.

(Born in Wales - well, Cardiff so that doesn't really count I guess - to English parents one of which is, several hundred years back, of Scottish decent - yup, a mongrel.. )

[wiffmaster]

Give them independence - fed up with supporting them economically, whilst at the same time being resented for doing so. Not to mention their actions causing the UK at large international embarrassment and the fact they can vote on English only issues. You want to make stupid decisions, don't tarnish the rest of us with them. Please, cut them loose! Good luck to them...

Edited by wiffmaster on Thursday 24th September 23:23

[fluffnik]

cazzer said:

I would let em go happily.
Then repeatedly veto Scotlands entry into the EU, Just for the fun of it.

It's the UK that's the EU member, England&Wales would be in exactly the same position as Scotland following its dissolution...

cazzer said:

Oh, and close the border

Even less traffic on our splendid roads - excellent!

[tank slapper]

FourWheelDrift said:

Last Election (2005) would not have been even close to a hung parliament if Scottish votes were discounted.

Seats
Labour - 356
Conservative - 198
Lib-dems - 62

Scotland vote
Labour - 41
SNP - 11
Libdem - 6
Conservative - 1

Taking those results out of the total would give

Labour - 315
Conservative - 197
Libdem - 56


Still a Labour majority.

That is largely because the constituency boundaries massively favoured Labour in that election. Labour lost the popular vote in 2005 in England, yet they still got an enormously disproportionate number of seats.

The reason Scottish constituencies also favour Labour at a national level is the SNP. People tend to choose between them and Labour, meaning although Labour may lose seats, the Conservatives won't necessarily gain them. It is win-win for them, because the presence of SNP votes is largely irrelavent when it comes to winning votes in Westminster because they are unlikely to vote with the Conservatives anyway.

The electoral system in this country needs to be massively overhauled, as it just isn't working properly. The current bunch of scumbags are in power with a virtually unbeatable majority on the back of 22% of the electorate. That is not in anyway representative or fair.

[Corpulent Tosser]

unrepentant said:

Other British, don't care.

As long as they quit whinging and take Brown back.

Oh the irony, look at the posts here and on similar threads and the whinging is all coming from Englishmen, how much Scotland costs us etc, not saying you are all wrong, but FFS stop whinging

As a Scotsman I was against devolution and am against independence, I think we are stronger as a union than as seperate entities, also I would not want to live in an independent Scotland ruled by either SNP or Labour.