Scotland after the vote
Discussion
Throughout this and the other Scots independence thread PCV has shown himself totally incapable of understanding economics at any level. His mathematics have been shown to be out by a factor of 10 fold and still he puts forward his cod arguments about the current Governments supposed incompetence. Gentlemen, it is absolutely pointless arguing with this 24 carrot idiot, as he will just continue to spout his nonsense whilst ignoring any factual answers he elicits.
pcvdriver said:
Who says we won't? ;-) Granted, it is going to be one of the main points of the negotiation process. In my opinion, all this should have been finalised before now. In fact this should have been one of the first things that Westminster and Holyrood should have been arguing the toss about since the inception of Holyrood. Nevertheless, the hand has been dealt, so we have to play the cards we've got.
We've been more or less held to gunpoint to choose. I.E. if you choose no - then forget it, oh and we'll make it so you never have the temerity to ask again, ever!!! Oh yeah a really loving and caring Westminster.
Don't fanny around, it is the main point. And Scotland is playing a very weak hand, publicly. Fair enough, an informed choice. Trouble is it isn't the only elephant in the room. We've been more or less held to gunpoint to choose. I.E. if you choose no - then forget it, oh and we'll make it so you never have the temerity to ask again, ever!!! Oh yeah a really loving and caring Westminster.
If you think Westminster doesn't care about you now, I think a couple of years down the line when the RUK actually, really don't give a toss will prove entertaining. Extremely so.
Currency, NHS, Post/telecomms, borders, education, defence, nuclear cleanup, tax, trade, customs, law, and all the rest. All have scope for immense comedy.
Bottom line, I don't give a toss, am I happy to lose a bit of money to get rid of a noisy antisocial neighbour? Probably yes.
Borghetto said:
Throughout this and the other Scots independence thread PCV has shown himself totally incapable of understanding economics at any level. His mathematics have been shown to be out by a factor of 10 fold and still he puts forward his cod arguments about the current Governments supposed incompetence. Gentlemen, it is absolutely pointless arguing with this 24 carrot idiot, as he will just continue to spout his nonsense whilst ignoring any factual answers he elicits.
OK. Here are some simple facts. Circa the time we had a £600bn shaped hole in our finances Danny Alexander proudly announced he'd cut the amount we owed by £200 billion per year and get us back into the black. This clearly isn't going to be the case, and if we can count out incompetence, then the only conclusion that can be drawn is that he is a lying ginger weasel.The point I've been trying to get round to is this - if the government are prepared to lie to the whole of the UK regarding the state of our finances, don't you think it's beyond the realm of possibilities that they would lie to the population of Scotland (irrespective of people political leanings) about the issues that Scotland faces?...
Their main lie is that Scotland just can't afford it. Really for the benefit of mind of the nay, or should that be "Naw" sayers we should have planned to have a referendum back when there was a budget surplus. We would then have seen just how well Scotland would have done on it's own since then. Even Cameron himself has said IIRC "Scotland would quite probably make it on it's own" can't quite remember if that is 100% verbatim, but hey-ho .....
pcvdriver said:
If the government are prepared to lie to the whole of the UK regarding the state of our finances, don't you think it's beyond the realm of possibilities that they would lie to the population of Scotland about the issues that Scotland faces?...Even Cameron himself has said IIRC "Scotland would quite probably make it on it's own"
Pruned, it's puts an interesting spin on that.pcvdriver said:
More deflection, let me ask you again, a straight answer would be appreciated.
Do YOU, Henry (or anyone else for that matter) consider that 4 years could be classed as "overnight"? I'm sorry, but not even by the loosest of possible terms could it be described as thus. Awaiting your response with baited breath.
Four years is not overnight but since nobody promised that it's irrelevant. Meanwhile nobody promised the end of the deficit in this parliament, the articles you post are about deficit reduction in future years.Do YOU, Henry (or anyone else for that matter) consider that 4 years could be classed as "overnight"? I'm sorry, but not even by the loosest of possible terms could it be described as thus. Awaiting your response with baited breath.
pcvdriver said:
Who says we won't? ;-) Granted, it is going to be one of the main points of the negotiation process. In my opinion, all this should have been finalised before now. In fact this should have been one of the first things that Westminster and Holyrood should have been arguing the toss about since the inception of Holyrood. Nevertheless, the hand has been dealt, so we have to play the cards we've got.
We've been more or less held to gunpoint to choose. I.E. if you choose no - then forget it, oh and we'll make it so you never have the temerity to ask again, ever!!! Oh yeah a really loving and caring Westminster.
OK, so how are you going to do it? How is this new currency going to come about? How are you going to cope with all the personal debt denominated in sterling when suddenly the currency is something else? How are you going to stop capital flight? How are you going to get people to lend to you in an unknown currency?We've been more or less held to gunpoint to choose. I.E. if you choose no - then forget it, oh and we'll make it so you never have the temerity to ask again, ever!!! Oh yeah a really loving and caring Westminster.
Of course it should all have been thought through, why haven't the SNP done that? They want independence so they should be telling us how it would work.
Pcvdriver
Your arguements are internally inconsistent.
One stream seems to be that: "b
d Tories are imposing austerity and cutting spending" therefore Scotland ought to go its own way. Another stream is: "bd Tories promised to repay the national debt [they didn't promise that at all but hey oh, let's not let facts get in the way] and so are lying and incompetent" and therefore Scotland is better off without them.
These two streams are obviously mutually inconsistent. If you don't cut spending, you won't reduce the deficit, move into surplus and repay debt. The economy cannot withstand the type of spending cuts the latter would require immediately as any fool knows.
So which do you want: austerity or budget deficit?
Your arguements are internally inconsistent.
One stream seems to be that: "b
d Tories are imposing austerity and cutting spending" therefore Scotland ought to go its own way. Another stream is: "bd Tories promised to repay the national debt [they didn't promise that at all but hey oh, let's not let facts get in the way] and so are lying and incompetent" and therefore Scotland is better off without them. These two streams are obviously mutually inconsistent. If you don't cut spending, you won't reduce the deficit, move into surplus and repay debt. The economy cannot withstand the type of spending cuts the latter would require immediately as any fool knows.
So which do you want: austerity or budget deficit?
Also, to take it further, you suggest that lying and incompetent politicians don't deserve to run Scotland. Let's look at that for a second.
Lies first. Salmond is a proven liar. No ifs or buts. He was caught telling bare faced lies about having sought legal advice when he hadn't. Sturgeon has lied repeatedly on the record about shipbuilding in Scotland post independence when it would clearly be illegal under EU law for the rUK government to act in the way she suggests. Under your logic you should be calling for the Yes campaigners to be banned from Scotland or Scottish power for lying.
Let's look at competence. One group has managed to deliver the fastest growth in the developed world. The other has not even managed to come up with a plan for currency for their new shiny country despite having had 20 years to do so. One group has engineered the lower unemployment and more people in work. The other seems hell bent on destroying jobs in the shipbuilding industry for one. FFS, the Nationalist can't even tell you how much it will cost to set up the institutions you will need.
Just because they are Scottish, does not make politiicians competent or honest (Blair, Brown, Edinburgh trams, are other examples).
So, why do you not count out all Nationalists? Double standards?
Lies first. Salmond is a proven liar. No ifs or buts. He was caught telling bare faced lies about having sought legal advice when he hadn't. Sturgeon has lied repeatedly on the record about shipbuilding in Scotland post independence when it would clearly be illegal under EU law for the rUK government to act in the way she suggests. Under your logic you should be calling for the Yes campaigners to be banned from Scotland or Scottish power for lying.
Let's look at competence. One group has managed to deliver the fastest growth in the developed world. The other has not even managed to come up with a plan for currency for their new shiny country despite having had 20 years to do so. One group has engineered the lower unemployment and more people in work. The other seems hell bent on destroying jobs in the shipbuilding industry for one. FFS, the Nationalist can't even tell you how much it will cost to set up the institutions you will need.
Just because they are Scottish, does not make politiicians competent or honest (Blair, Brown, Edinburgh trams, are other examples).
So, why do you not count out all Nationalists? Double standards?
pcvdriver said:
The cynic in me is of the opinion that Westminster's resistance to Scotland becoming independent will start to wain when the oil companies start to pull out of the North Sea and not until then. Does anyone else have a different view?
We had over 250 years of a union when oil wasn't being commercially exploited - suddenly oil becomes viable and Scotland want's independence. I think you are looking at it from very much the wrong angle when it comes to oil.It sounds awfully like a gold digging wife wanting out of a marriage the day she wins then lottery......but that's just the cynic in me.
Finally, you obsess about the debt situation of the UK without stopping to consider the situation that iScotland will most likely find itself in post independence.
Most people agree it will have a population share of the debt. It is currently spending more than it earns in tax. The SNP have promised (you like politician's promises, remember) to increase spending further.
If Scotland does not have its own currency, the risk of lending to Scotland has to be higher (rUK can print more pounds to repay creditors, Scotland cannot - bear in mind that UK just borrowed at a negative real interest rate for 50 years). Borrowing costs are likely to rise, pushing the deficit higher still. So, the SNP will have a difficult choice: allow the deficit to spiral (you don't seem to like that), cut spending dramatically (you don't seem to like that either) which will crunch the economy, making the poverty statistics way worse than today (I doubt you would sign up for that), and/or raise taxes massively causing capital flight, emigration, corporate relocation (see Hollande's France for a recent example).
So if the economy is your worry, it is most likely an "out of the frying pan, into the fire situation".
Frankly, if you hold the views you do you should be voting "no".
Most people agree it will have a population share of the debt. It is currently spending more than it earns in tax. The SNP have promised (you like politician's promises, remember) to increase spending further.
If Scotland does not have its own currency, the risk of lending to Scotland has to be higher (rUK can print more pounds to repay creditors, Scotland cannot - bear in mind that UK just borrowed at a negative real interest rate for 50 years). Borrowing costs are likely to rise, pushing the deficit higher still. So, the SNP will have a difficult choice: allow the deficit to spiral (you don't seem to like that), cut spending dramatically (you don't seem to like that either) which will crunch the economy, making the poverty statistics way worse than today (I doubt you would sign up for that), and/or raise taxes massively causing capital flight, emigration, corporate relocation (see Hollande's France for a recent example).
So if the economy is your worry, it is most likely an "out of the frying pan, into the fire situation".
Frankly, if you hold the views you do you should be voting "no".
AstonZagato great couple of posts - though I doubt any ProYes will respond unless its bluff bluster bullying scaremongering wastemonger or literally laughing out loud then once finished giggling discuss thatcher or how iScotland means kill off bedroom tax.
I wonder - as the spare room benefit withdrawal - isn't really working in reality that pre the vote Westminster stop the policy....
I wonder - as the spare room benefit withdrawal - isn't really working in reality that pre the vote Westminster stop the policy....
pcvdriver said:
Awaiting your response with baited breath.
Been eating maggots?I have a simple question for you- how will an independent Scotland work, economically & regarding day-to-day life?
Forget the "we still have to negotiate that" or assumptions that rUK will automatically roll over & give them everything they need. How will it actually work?
Rovinghawk said:
Been eating maggots?
I have a simple question for you- how will an independent Scotland work, economically & regarding day-to-day life?
Forget the "we still have to negotiate that" or assumptions that rUK will automatically roll over & give them everything they need. How will it actually work?
much the same way it works now. They already have schools and hospitals, roads, electricity water etc. people who work and pay tax. I have a simple question for you- how will an independent Scotland work, economically & regarding day-to-day life?
Forget the "we still have to negotiate that" or assumptions that rUK will automatically roll over & give them everything they need. How will it actually work?
It's not like they're setting up some new nation on the sea bed.
el stovey said:
much the same way it works now. They already have schools and hospitals, roads, electricity water etc. people who work and pay tax.
It's not like they're setting up some new nation on the sea bed.
But they would be setting up a new country that does not currently have much of the infrastructure and process. For example, they don't have a currency, we keep coming back to that but how would it work? It's surely not acceptable to voters to be about six weeks from a vote and they don't know that answer to that?It's not like they're setting up some new nation on the sea bed.
The reality is that Scots are being asked to vote for something where it is quite evident that it's supporters have no idea what they would do if they win. Or if they have a plan they aren't sharing it.
el stovey said:
......people who work and pay tax.
How is tax currently collected in Scotland.....do all taxes from Scottish firms, employees etc go via a Scottish HMRC department - who then pass this on to central government?Does Scotland have the necessary resources, employees etc to assess and collect all of the taxes generated by Scotland?
(genuine question - I have no idea how HMRC works across the UK)
Moonhawk said:
How is tax currently collected in Scotland.....do all taxes from Scottish firms, employees etc go via a Scottish HMRC department - who then pass this on to central government?
Does Scotland have the necessary resources, employees etc to assess and collect all of the taxes generated by Scotland?
(genuine question - I have no idea how HMRC works across the UK)
Nope, it is all collected by HMRC who can't even tell you how it splits down between Scotland and the rest of the UK.Does Scotland have the necessary resources, employees etc to assess and collect all of the taxes generated by Scotland?
(genuine question - I have no idea how HMRC works across the UK)
Moonhawk said:
How is tax currently collected in Scotland.....do all taxes from Scottish firms, employees etc go via a Scottish HMRC department - who then pass this on to central government?
Does Scotland have the necessary resources, employees etc to assess and collect all of the taxes generated by Scotland?
(genuine question - I have no idea how HMRC works across the UK)
I work in Scotland, mostly for American companies who are based in London. My tax is collected by HMRC, my VAT by HMRC and I get paid in GBP and USD, which is converted into GBP before arriving in my bank account. I have absolutely NO idea what will happen after any yes vote, or what currency I'll have to use... As unlikely to be GBP as Euro... but I know one thing for sure. I'll be financially worse off. There are reasons why in an ideal world I'd like to be shot of Westminster. But life isn't ideal, and I'm a pragmatist.Does Scotland have the necessary resources, employees etc to assess and collect all of the taxes generated by Scotland?
(genuine question - I have no idea how HMRC works across the UK)
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