US journalist beheaded by ISIS...

[CJP80]

Gandahar said:

As a point of note non-religious regimes in the past 100 years have killed far more people than religious ones, so pretty pointless trying to poke the atheist finger saying how bad they are.

It mainly boils down to "someone not like us" rather than religion.

Think about it.

But when the differentiator is a belief in fairy tales, it's sickening to think that it's a reason for the death and murder of innocents also.

[MrBrightSi]

CJP80 said:

KareemK said:

People born in a country are entitled to 'agitate' for a change of society from within to a system that they'd prefer to live under or we'd never have had the American revolution or a thousand other uprisings throughout history.

Muslims make up over 2.5 million of the population and growing, fast. So democratically, they are well within their rights to call for Sharia law. When they start to outnumber everyone else then thats the time to start looking abroad for a bolt hole yourself.

Yes, the Islamic Republic of Chavistan is where we are headed...

I'd like to think that most people when they move here find some of the ways of British life great to take up and some ok to ignore, if you really believe that the prediction of sharia law is going to happen, then go build your bunker and stock up on tinned beans. I would rather live the life we preach to have, with all its freedom to not whip out the jingoisms every time we get paranoid. Than lock myself away with my wail and xenophobia.

[jmorgan]

Gandahar said:

As a point of note non-religious regimes in the past 100 years have killed far more people than religious ones, so pretty pointless trying to poke the atheist finger saying how bad they are.

It mainly boils down to "someone not like us" rather than religion.

Think about it.

Not checked the figures personally but the population count over the centuries would make that unfair? I think one of the Wars of the Roses battles had excess of 30,000, that was a massive army for those days. Others were around 5,000 a side.

Personally though, I know human kind does not need religion for a fight.

[CJP80]

MrBrightSi said:

I'd like to think that most people when they move here find some of the ways of British life great to take up and some ok to ignore, if you really believe that the prediction of sharia law is going to happen, then go build your bunker and stock up on tinned beans. I would rather live the life we preach to have, with all its freedom to not whip out the jingoisms every time we get paranoid. Than lock myself away with my wail and xenophobia.

I'm neither paranoid nor xenophobic. Half of my family is from the middle-east. I have no issue with foreign immigration or multiculturalism. I do have an issue when irrational beliefs held by others endanger me or my family. Now we can espouse notions of British acceptance and etiquette and celebrate our diversity, but the fact that we are now producing extremism means that we don't really have a handle on it. Ignoring the root cause is a mistake.

[Jimbeaux]

KareemK said:

Jimbeaux said:

Really? So you basically just told non-Muslim Brits to leave themselves.

Did I? Hm, Did I?

KareemK said:

When they start to outnumber everyone else then thats the time to start looking abroad for a bolt hole yourself.

I know the language isn't your indiginous one but come Jbx.

Sure you did; not literally but in essence you did just that. Saying that once Muslims outnumber non-Muslims, they could use Democracy to vote in a Caliphate of sorts. As you stated in another post, Muslims will not accept seperation of church and state, thus non Muslims will face harsh restrictions or worse. Therefore, they may well have to leave. Your statement, therefore, seems to imply that they will use Democracy to vote out Democracy.
You are correct BTW, the language is not "indiginous" to me, it's "Indigenous" to me.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 22 August 18:44

[Jimbeaux]

Gandahar said:

The IS are an army going to nowhere, not sure why people are so bothered about them.

They are based in the middle of Iraq and Syria with all borders populated with people opposed to them. They are not going anywhere apart from that bleached barren desert holding. They'll never now invade any parts of that region where agriculture or commerce flourishes, they will just get driven back.

They are just like somalia based al shabaab but moved a few hundreds of miles into another region of somewhere that has facilities lacking in supporting a country or caliphate.

An army marches on it's stomach. Currently they might be quite popular in local regions, but given time if the borders of their small desert they live in are kept they will not want to stay there in it and toil. So they will feel the hardships, not of the US or weapons but of the place they are at. The people supporting them will too.

All that is needed is that they are cooped up on "reservations" in effect, and see how they go from there. Not even any need to bomb them that much unless they attack the peripheries.

All this talk of a new IS state being a big threat to the whole of the middle east is a bit like the worry in the 1960's of rebels taking over Vietnam. The domino effect that would lead to the whole of SE Asia being taken over. It never happened.

Best to just put a pen around them and see how long they want to stick it with no end in sight....

That is a valid argument except you might wish to remember that many of these hold western passports and are in control of billions of Dollars. That in itself would allow the core to survive and break out of said "pen".

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 22 August 18:37

[Jimbeaux]

technogogo said:

s1962a said:

Interesting post. One point I would like to make, and think about it. Look at the dialogue and the way PH posters speak on these threads. You get the people with the view of religion is bad, and then those that talk about religion as they believe in. Which of those people has the most extreme view? I would argue that the PH posters who favour religion seem far more balanced and rational than those that do not. It's almost like you have to shout down religion to make your voice heard that you hate religion.

I think two things, firstly as someone who was culturally Christian, primary school etc... but religiously ambivalent through my teens to my thirties, then put a lot of thought (and research) into it as I reached my forties and ended up strongly atheist... when you remove all religious tint from your thinking you are left with a strong sense that you cannot believe any of it. I was frankly staggered at the end of my conversion. I had a sense of peace, almost blissful like arriving after a long journey. But it really is like the Emperor really is naked and still appearing on the six o'clock news with his tackle out! You just reach a state (well i did) when you are aghast at how any organised religion could still exist. And every time someone is cured of Ebola by a huge medical team of nurses, doctors, scientists and then, at the very steps of the hospital thanks god and not them. Jeez that is annoying. The very week the pope's nephews family was wiped out in a car crash. And nobody seems to see the insanity in this? Anyway, there is that.

Secondly, we still aren't used to hearing criticism of religion. It is the only protected characteristic (enshrined in law albeit trumped by the others in recent legal tests) that you can change. So it remains having special status in terms of critique. I always say Criticise the Idea, Not the People. But sometimes people take offence because it suits them. Or gives them victim status. Or power to change the debate. Or just throw a smoke bomb.

On a side, The doctor did thank the medical team that saved him, just before thanking God. His belief in God is what brought him to Africa to practice medicine there in the first place, to help. Try not to be annoyed, it'll be OK.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 22 August 18:37

[JensenA]

KareemK said:

JensenA said:

Then those that think this way, need to leave our country, and go to live in a country that they feel happy in as it agrees with their religious beliefs.

What if they're born here?

If they have total disdain for our society, contempt for democracy and wish to impose a theocracy upon the British people, and an ideology that is completely at odds with our hard own culture that has taken thousands of years to evolve and mature, then yes, I'm more than happy for them to leave - quickly.

[Grumfutock]

Jimbeaux said:

Gandahar said:

The IS are an army going to nowhere, not sure why people are so bothered about them.

They are based in the middle of Iraq and Syria with all borders populated with people opposed to them. They are not going anywhere apart from that bleached barren desert holding. They'll never now invade any parts of that region where agriculture or commerce flourishes, they will just get driven back.

They are just like somalia based al shabaab but moved a few hundreds of miles into another region of somewhere that has facilities lacking in supporting a country or caliphate.

An army marches on it's stomach. Currently they might be quite popular in local regions, but given time if the borders of their small desert they live in are kept they will not want to stay there in it and toil. So they will feel the hardships, not of the US or weapons but of the place they are at. The people supporting them will too.

All that is needed is that they are cooped up on "reservations" in effect, and see how they go from there. Not even any need to bomb them that much unless they attack the peripheries.

All this talk of a new IS state being a big threat to the whole of the middle east is a bit like the worry in the 1960's of rebels taking over Vietnam. The domino effect that would lead to the whole of SE Asia being taken over. It never happened.

Best to just put a pen around them and see how long they want to stick it with no end in sight....

That is a valid argument except you might wish to remember that many of these hold western passports and are in control of billions of Dollars. That in itself would allow the core to survive and break out of said "pen".

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 22 August 18:37

I would also add that the 9/11 bombers weren't American. The world is a very small place.

[Mermaid]

Anyone here think Islam is looked on more favourably than a year ago, 2 years ago? Trending.

Tipping point when things get super nasty?

[Jimbeaux]

Mermaid said:

Anyone here think Islam is looked on more favourably than a year ago, 2 years ago? Trending.

Tipping point when things get super nasty?

IMO, the tipping point is when they bring that barbarism home(the West), again.

Edited by Jimbeaux on Friday 22 August 19:57

[anonymous-user]

One note for those that blame all this on belief in sky fairies - Sunni and Shia Muslims both believe in the same Allah, what they disagree on is a technical matter, a tribal matter, about power and control, about way of life and being able to live how one feels and make others live in that same way so as not to threaten that way of life. The same for the Jews, the same for the capitalists, the communists, the Asians, the Europeans, the East, the West, the indigenous, the immigrants, the royalists, the republicans............

[JensenA]

If they bring that barbarism to our country. Every single Muslim in the UK will be hated and feared - an exaggeration to make a point.

[anonymous-user]

JensenA said:

If they bring that barbarism to our country. Every single Muslim in the UK will be hated and feared - an exaggeration to make a point.

By some they will, not by all. The British people are better than that in general, PH bigots excepted.

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

Mermaid said:

Anyone here think Islam is looked on more favourably than a year ago, 2 years ago? Trending.

Tipping point when things get super nasty?

IMO, the tipping point is when they bring that barbarism home(the West), again.

I agree, and why all peace loving democratic Muslims citizens of this country should be shopping all those who have gone out to fight, and those who are thinking of going there/ supporting such activity.

Zero tolerance and hate to agree with a Bush doctrine of "either you are with us, or against us" does sort of make in this situation that could permanently ruin race/colour/religious relations.

[JensenA]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

So when do you think the tipping point will be reached?

[HoHoHo]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

[Jimbeaux]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

People have their limits, no matter how tolerant. If hyper-barbarism, on a wide spread scale is brought to your shores, people may panic, circle the wagons, and not bother trying to differentiate between which are good and which are not.

[Mermaid]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You do not think this is changing for the worse in this most tolerant country?

[Mermaid]

Jimbeaux said:

People have their limits, no matter how tolerant. If hyper-barbarism, on a wide spread scale is brought to your shores, people may panic, circle the wagons, and not bother trying to differentiate between which are good and which are not.

Agreed. & please tell me what a Muslim looks like for it is not easy - a brown face (unless turban wearing) is more likely to be a Muslim than a yellow/black/white one.