Moderate Muslims
Discussion
GT03ROB said:
SirBlade said:
With regard to Muslims, we socialise with a Muslim family. They are as sound as a pound.
But then little things trickle in, like, adherence to Ramadan, etc...
I was raised a Catholic, but am now an Athiest. If another catholic was to insist upon only eating fish on a Friday, I would be wary of them. For the same reason, I am wary of "moderate" mussies who do the RamaDamaDingDong thing. Fooking madness.
Not sure if thats serious, but if so I give up But then little things trickle in, like, adherence to Ramadan, etc...
I was raised a Catholic, but am now an Athiest. If another catholic was to insist upon only eating fish on a Friday, I would be wary of them. For the same reason, I am wary of "moderate" mussies who do the RamaDamaDingDong thing. Fooking madness.
why? you must be loopy to only eat fish on Friday. Alpinestars said:
don4l said:
I also think that Trigger is a muslim, but I haven't seen him say that stoning is wrong. Feel free to quote him, and prove me wrong.
I've asked three or four times for muslims to condemn stoning. Each time I was treated with aggression. Countdown, and I do believe him, says that he didn't see my posts. When he did eventually reply, I believed him, and he doesn't agree with stoning.
I've asked three or four times for muslims to condemn stoning. Each time I was treated with aggression. Countdown, and I do believe him, says that he didn't see my posts. When he did eventually reply, I believed him, and he doesn't agree with stoning.
triggerh4ppy said:
Muslim here. Don't agree with stoning, or throwing people off cliffs
Does that make you feel better?May I ask if you are a muslim?
If you are, then may I ask what your opinion is about "stoning"?
Can it ever be justified?
Alpinestars said:
don4l said:
Yes, of course it does.
May I ask if you are a muslim?
If you are, then may I ask what your opinion is about "stoning"?
Can it ever be justified?
I'm very religious yes. May I ask if you are a muslim?
If you are, then may I ask what your opinion is about "stoning"?
Can it ever be justified?
And subscribe to this
Stoning can never be justified. It's barbaric.
Are you a muslim?
RichB said:
Is it written in the Korun that Muslims cannot follow football? 
Following United is not just football.... It's a religion and it's life, and it doesn't prescribe stoning or hating homosexuals or being misogynistic or any other stereotype anyone wants to label me with. Well except for wanting world domination 
. I'm interested in why someone would even ask?
Actually I've long held the opinion tat David Beckham would do more to stop extreme Islam than Bush.
I remember being in the Sudan (a pretty extreme place you'd agree) around the time Beckham left MU, and seeing the kids playing football outside the mosque in his new 23 shirt, we need tot build on this.
Which is my points I keep saying;
1 we need to build on these common issues between Islam and the west, not keep looking at what divides us from Muslims
2 We need to look at the issues that divide Islam (female education etc) and concentrate on these.
3 We need to stop capitulating to things that are not universally Islamic, (Face Covering, Halal food in schools, Moving Ramadan for exams etc) there are provisions in Sharia for the latter two which we should require Muslims in the west to utilize and not capitulate.
I remember being in the Sudan (a pretty extreme place you'd agree) around the time Beckham left MU, and seeing the kids playing football outside the mosque in his new 23 shirt, we need tot build on this.
Which is my points I keep saying;
1 we need to build on these common issues between Islam and the west, not keep looking at what divides us from Muslims
2 We need to look at the issues that divide Islam (female education etc) and concentrate on these.
3 We need to stop capitulating to things that are not universally Islamic, (Face Covering, Halal food in schools, Moving Ramadan for exams etc) there are provisions in Sharia for the latter two which we should require Muslims in the west to utilize and not capitulate.
allnighter said:
he problem does not lie in the book.It's the Zillions of hadiths that have been written starting from about 200 years after the messenger died, and people have attributed a lot of stuff to Muhammad based on hearsay and whatever suited their agenda at the time. This grey area grew over time and contributed to the creation of many sects to both divisions of Islam (Sunnis & Shia). Sharia law is mostly based on hearsay so that tells you something.
People invent stuff left, right and centre and claim Muhammad said it, but the funny thing is if you referred back to the Quran, you would see instructions forbidding the recording of anything the prophet said so as to preserve the authenticity of the Quran. The irony is that after the death of Muhammad, the Arabs did exactly the opposite of what was instructed to them in their holy book, hence all the divisions and disagreements that you see today with no less than 73 sects associated to Islam. There is even a sect called the Quranist (self-proclaimed reformists) who accept the Quran as scripture, but rejects the religious authority of the Hadith.
If all these sects cannot agree with each other, and some even kill each other, how can anyone begin to think about the idea of reforming Islam and where to start. Hadiths contradicting the book, hadiths contradicting other hadiths, scholars contradicting other scholars, and everyone is a self-declared prophet (sarcasm alert!) and claims he holds the "truth" to what God/Allah conveyed.
Everyone is different hence the reason you should never lump Muslims together. Everyone thinks differently about their faith, some take quranic verses literally, some take them as symbolism for something else, and some look at them in their historical context. Others, who are mostly uneducated, are not aware of what the book say and rely on hearsay (Hadiths) and so on and so forth. Some even believe Niqab and FGM are cited in the Quran because someone who lives next door told them while they were playing dominos in the local café.
You even get some bright doctors and engineers totally blinded by this crap, disregard the warning signs their brain is giving them, and embrace charlatanism based on what some f
kwit scholar said, thinking Ah it must be Allah's command so I cannot go against it.
Islam's biggest weakness is Hadiths, and seeing that people are unwilling to disregard hearesay and invented sayings, there will always be conflicts and sects. Nothing can change that.
Good post. It seems from my reading that much of the militancy was very politically expedient for the later caliphs, so any twisting of the original peaceful nature of Islam happened in the 8th and 9th centuries. Not last Friday.People invent stuff left, right and centre and claim Muhammad said it, but the funny thing is if you referred back to the Quran, you would see instructions forbidding the recording of anything the prophet said so as to preserve the authenticity of the Quran. The irony is that after the death of Muhammad, the Arabs did exactly the opposite of what was instructed to them in their holy book, hence all the divisions and disagreements that you see today with no less than 73 sects associated to Islam. There is even a sect called the Quranist (self-proclaimed reformists) who accept the Quran as scripture, but rejects the religious authority of the Hadith.
If all these sects cannot agree with each other, and some even kill each other, how can anyone begin to think about the idea of reforming Islam and where to start. Hadiths contradicting the book, hadiths contradicting other hadiths, scholars contradicting other scholars, and everyone is a self-declared prophet (sarcasm alert!) and claims he holds the "truth" to what God/Allah conveyed.
Everyone is different hence the reason you should never lump Muslims together. Everyone thinks differently about their faith, some take quranic verses literally, some take them as symbolism for something else, and some look at them in their historical context. Others, who are mostly uneducated, are not aware of what the book say and rely on hearsay (Hadiths) and so on and so forth. Some even believe Niqab and FGM are cited in the Quran because someone who lives next door told them while they were playing dominos in the local café.
You even get some bright doctors and engineers totally blinded by this crap, disregard the warning signs their brain is giving them, and embrace charlatanism based on what some f
kwit scholar said, thinking Ah it must be Allah's command so I cannot go against it.Islam's biggest weakness is Hadiths, and seeing that people are unwilling to disregard hearesay and invented sayings, there will always be conflicts and sects. Nothing can change that.
So perhaps the better question would be how do we identify which sects are peaceful. Which are militant. Which institutions are controlled by which sects and which parts of these sects. Which charities and advocacy groups are genuinely peaceful and which are jihadist.
For organisations like the MCB something along the lines of Charlie's declaration doesn't seem unreasonable. It doesn't have to be mandatory but a sort of qualifier for groups like the MCB, before politicians take their pronouncements or advice too seriously. Let alone give them funding. You could ask all religious groups to sign up to it if that satisfied the desire for equality.
The MCB claims to speak on behalf of Islam and 'Muslims affairs' in the UK and claims to represent all sects, and appears to have the ear of the media and politicians when they need a Muslim voice. If I were a peaceful Muslim I would probably be railing against this more than "bigots" who have a negative view of Islam.
As to why Muslim groups in particular are expected to sign up to this, I believe it was actually written by a Muslim - Dr Zuhdi Jasser, who I have mentioned a few times as a very sincere, peaceful Muslim. So ask him. In the preamble it says he believes he is engaged in a 'battle for the soul' of Islam.
Preamble said:
We are Muslims who live in the 21st century. We stand for a respectful, merciful and inclusive interpretation of Islam. We are in a battle for the soul of Islam, and an Islamic renewal must defeat the ideology of Islamism, or politicized Islam, which seeks to create Islamic states, as well as an Islamic caliphate.
We seek to reclaim the progressive spirit with which Islam was born in the 7th century to fast forward it into the 21st century. We support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was adopted by United Nations member states in 1948.
We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. We announce the formation of an international initiative: the Muslim Reform Movement.
We have courageous reformers from around the world who have written our Declaration for Muslim Reform, a living document that we will continue to enhance as our journey continues. We invite our fellow Muslims and neighbors to join us.
Obviously the republican bit would have to go in the UK. And I don't really see how you can have a religion if it doesn't claim to be the way to heaven, but the sentiment seems good. We seek to reclaim the progressive spirit with which Islam was born in the 7th century to fast forward it into the 21st century. We support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was adopted by United Nations member states in 1948.
We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. We announce the formation of an international initiative: the Muslim Reform Movement.
We have courageous reformers from around the world who have written our Declaration for Muslim Reform, a living document that we will continue to enhance as our journey continues. We invite our fellow Muslims and neighbors to join us.
Berw said:
Alllnighters post is brilliant, I am of the view we need to divide and conquer, not lump together, can you quote the verse that speaks about not quoting the prophets words, I've never seen that referenced before.
It's not in the Quran as far as I'm aware. It's a Hadith, which Hadith believers reject as not being authentic! Some ridiculous percentage of Hadith have been rejected on the same basis, which begs the question how do believers ever prove any of them are right. In any case, Hadith is expressly prohibited by the Quran which gets you to the same place as not following the prophets own words.
Alpinestars said:
It's not in the Quran as far as I'm aware. It's a Hadith, which Hadith believers reject as not being authentic! Some ridiculous percentage of Hadith have been rejected on the same basis, which begs the question how do believers ever prove any of them are right.
In any case, Hadith is expressly prohibited by the Quran which gets you to the same place as not following the prophets own words.
Correct. My mistake, it was Muhammad who said :"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." In any case, Hadith is expressly prohibited by the Quran which gets you to the same place as not following the prophets own words.
The Quran's verses reinforce that view:
(7:185) Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things that God has created? And does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Then, in which Hadith (= saying/word), other than this (Quran) do they believe in?
(12:111) Verily, there is a lesson to be drawn from their stories for men who possess intelligence. This (Quran) is not a fabricated Hadith; On the contrary, it confirms that which came before it, it provides a detailed explanation of everything, as well as guidance and mercy for people who believe.
(31:6) Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadiths to divert from the path of God without knowledge, and take it (the Quran) as a mockery. These have incurred a humiliating retribution.
(39:23) God has revealed [herein] the best Hadith: It is a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). It makes the skins of those who fear their Lord shiver; in the end, their skins and their hearts soften up at God’s remembrance. Such is God's guidance; which He bestows upon whomever He wills. As for whomever God lets go astray, there is no guide for him.
(45:6) These are God’s verses which we to you [O Muhammad] truthfully. Therefore, in which Hadith other than GOD and His verses do they believe?
“In which Hadith other than GOD and His verses do they believe?”:
This is the clearest command which Alpine was referring to that Muslims should only follow the word of God and any hadith cannot be followed (or trusted) because it would be a hadith other than “God and His verses”.
Basically the quran is the only 'Hadith' that should be trusted in Islam.
AJS- said:
allnighter said:
he problem does not lie in the book.It's the Zillions of hadiths that have been written starting from about 200 years after the messenger died, and people have attributed a lot of stuff to Muhammad based on hearsay and whatever suited their agenda at the time. This grey area grew over time and contributed to the creation of many sects to both divisions of Islam (Sunnis & Shia). Sharia law is mostly based on hearsay so that tells you something.
People invent stuff left, right and centre and claim Muhammad said it, but the funny thing is if you referred back to the Quran, you would see instructions forbidding the recording of anything the prophet said so as to preserve the authenticity of the Quran. The irony is that after the death of Muhammad, the Arabs did exactly the opposite of what was instructed to them in their holy book, hence all the divisions and disagreements that you see today with no less than 73 sects associated to Islam. There is even a sect called the Quranist (self-proclaimed reformists) who accept the Quran as scripture, but rejects the religious authority of the Hadith.
If all these sects cannot agree with each other, and some even kill each other, how can anyone begin to think about the idea of reforming Islam and where to start. Hadiths contradicting the book, hadiths contradicting other hadiths, scholars contradicting other scholars, and everyone is a self-declared prophet (sarcasm alert!) and claims he holds the "truth" to what God/Allah conveyed.
Everyone is different hence the reason you should never lump Muslims together. Everyone thinks differently about their faith, some take quranic verses literally, some take them as symbolism for something else, and some look at them in their historical context. Others, who are mostly uneducated, are not aware of what the book say and rely on hearsay (Hadiths) and so on and so forth. Some even believe Niqab and FGM are cited in the Quran because someone who lives next door told them while they were playing dominos in the local café.
You even get some bright doctors and engineers totally blinded by this crap, disregard the warning signs their brain is giving them, and embrace charlatanism based on what some fkwit scholar said, thinking Ah it must be Allah's command so I cannot go against it.
Islam's biggest weakness is Hadiths, and seeing that people are unwilling to disregard hearesay and invented sayings, there will always be conflicts and sects. Nothing can change that.
Good post. It seems from my reading that much of the militancy was very politically expedient for the later caliphs, so any twisting of the original peaceful nature of Islam happened in the 8th and 9th centuries. Not last Friday.People invent stuff left, right and centre and claim Muhammad said it, but the funny thing is if you referred back to the Quran, you would see instructions forbidding the recording of anything the prophet said so as to preserve the authenticity of the Quran. The irony is that after the death of Muhammad, the Arabs did exactly the opposite of what was instructed to them in their holy book, hence all the divisions and disagreements that you see today with no less than 73 sects associated to Islam. There is even a sect called the Quranist (self-proclaimed reformists) who accept the Quran as scripture, but rejects the religious authority of the Hadith.
If all these sects cannot agree with each other, and some even kill each other, how can anyone begin to think about the idea of reforming Islam and where to start. Hadiths contradicting the book, hadiths contradicting other hadiths, scholars contradicting other scholars, and everyone is a self-declared prophet (sarcasm alert!) and claims he holds the "truth" to what God/Allah conveyed.
Everyone is different hence the reason you should never lump Muslims together. Everyone thinks differently about their faith, some take quranic verses literally, some take them as symbolism for something else, and some look at them in their historical context. Others, who are mostly uneducated, are not aware of what the book say and rely on hearsay (Hadiths) and so on and so forth. Some even believe Niqab and FGM are cited in the Quran because someone who lives next door told them while they were playing dominos in the local café.
You even get some bright doctors and engineers totally blinded by this crap, disregard the warning signs their brain is giving them, and embrace charlatanism based on what some f
kwit scholar said, thinking Ah it must be Allah's command so I cannot go against it.Islam's biggest weakness is Hadiths, and seeing that people are unwilling to disregard hearesay and invented sayings, there will always be conflicts and sects. Nothing can change that.
So perhaps the better question would be how do we identify which sects are peaceful. Which are militant. Which institutions are controlled by which sects and which parts of these sects. Which charities and advocacy groups are genuinely peaceful and which are jihadist.
For organisations like the MCB something along the lines of Charlie's declaration doesn't seem unreasonable. It doesn't have to be mandatory but a sort of qualifier for groups like the MCB, before politicians take their pronouncements or advice too seriously. Let alone give them funding. You could ask all religious groups to sign up to it if that satisfied the desire for equality.
The MCB claims to speak on behalf of Islam and 'Muslims affairs' in the UK and claims to represent all sects, and appears to have the ear of the media and politicians when they need a Muslim voice. If I were a peaceful Muslim I would probably be railing against this more than "bigots" who have a negative view of Islam.
As to why Muslim groups in particular are expected to sign up to this, I believe it was actually written by a Muslim - Dr Zuhdi Jasser, who I have mentioned a few times as a very sincere, peaceful Muslim. So ask him. In the preamble it says he believes he is engaged in a 'battle for the soul' of Islam.
Preamble said:
We are Muslims who live in the 21st century. We stand for a respectful, merciful and inclusive interpretation of Islam. We are in a battle for the soul of Islam, and an Islamic renewal must defeat the ideology of Islamism, or politicized Islam, which seeks to create Islamic states, as well as an Islamic caliphate.
We seek to reclaim the progressive spirit with which Islam was born in the 7th century to fast forward it into the 21st century. We support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was adopted by United Nations member states in 1948.
We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. We announce the formation of an international initiative: the Muslim Reform Movement.
We have courageous reformers from around the world who have written our Declaration for Muslim Reform, a living document that we will continue to enhance as our journey continues. We invite our fellow Muslims and neighbors to join us.
Obviously the republican bit would have to go in the UK. And I don't really see how you can have a religion if it doesn't claim to be the way to heaven, but the sentiment seems good. We seek to reclaim the progressive spirit with which Islam was born in the 7th century to fast forward it into the 21st century. We support the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was adopted by United Nations member states in 1948.
We reject interpretations of Islam that call for any violence, social injustice and politicized Islam. Facing the threat of terrorism, intolerance, and social injustice in the name of Islam, we have reflected on how we can transform our communities based on three principles: peace, human rights and secular governance. We announce the formation of an international initiative: the Muslim Reform Movement.
We have courageous reformers from around the world who have written our Declaration for Muslim Reform, a living document that we will continue to enhance as our journey continues. We invite our fellow Muslims and neighbors to join us.
Dr Zuhdi Jasser is fighting his corner in America and trying to give peaceful Muslims a good PR, but he remains disconnected from the reality of the situation by putting the cart before the horse. If I were a Muslim I would flatly reject his declaration because it insults the very freedoms that America stands for. Muslims and their faith is a personal affair and needs no signing of any declaration, just like ordinary citizens do not need to sign any declaration against rape, murder, peadophilia, necrophilia, assault etc.. The law is clear and every citizen has to obey it period. Dr Jasser is doing more harm to Muslims by reinforcing suspicion rather than diminishing it.The problem lies with the STEREOTYPER, not the STREREOTYPEE.
Edited by allnighter on Wednesday 13th January 11:10
allnighter said:
orrect. My mistake, it was Muhammad who said :"Do not write anything from me except Quran. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it."
The Quran's verses reinforce that view:
(7:185) Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things that God has created? And does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Then, in which Hadith (= saying/word), other than this (Quran) do they believe in?
(12:111) Verily, there is a lesson to be drawn from their stories for men who possess intelligence. This (Quran) is not a fabricated Hadith; On the contrary, it confirms that which came before it, it provides a detailed explanation of everything, as well as guidance and mercy for people who believe.
(31:6) Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadiths to divert from the path of God without knowledge, and take it (the Quran) as a mockery. These have incurred a humiliating retribution.
(39:23) God has revealed [herein] the best Hadith: It is a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). It makes the skins of those who fear their Lord shiver; in the end, their skins and their hearts soften up at God’s remembrance. Such is God's guidance; which He bestows upon whomever He wills. As for whomever God lets go astray, there is no guide for him.
(45:6) These are God’s verses which we to you [O Muhammad] truthfully. Therefore, in which Hadith other than GOD and His verses do they believe?
“In which Hadith other than GOD and His verses do they believe?”:
This is the clearest command which Alpine was referring to that Muslims should only follow the word of God and any hadith cannot be followed (or trusted) because it would be a hadith other than “God and His verses”.
Basically the quran is the only 'Hadith' that should be trusted in Islam.
Agreed. His "statement" is Hadith, that the vast majority of Muslims seem to reject. But the Quran is explicit in its rejection of any other source of Islamic law.The Quran's verses reinforce that view:
(7:185) Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things that God has created? And does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Then, in which Hadith (= saying/word), other than this (Quran) do they believe in?
(12:111) Verily, there is a lesson to be drawn from their stories for men who possess intelligence. This (Quran) is not a fabricated Hadith; On the contrary, it confirms that which came before it, it provides a detailed explanation of everything, as well as guidance and mercy for people who believe.
(31:6) Among the people, there are those who uphold baseless Hadiths to divert from the path of God without knowledge, and take it (the Quran) as a mockery. These have incurred a humiliating retribution.
(39:23) God has revealed [herein] the best Hadith: It is a book that is consistent, and points out both ways (to Heaven and Hell). It makes the skins of those who fear their Lord shiver; in the end, their skins and their hearts soften up at God’s remembrance. Such is God's guidance; which He bestows upon whomever He wills. As for whomever God lets go astray, there is no guide for him.
(45:6) These are God’s verses which we to you [O Muhammad] truthfully. Therefore, in which Hadith other than GOD and His verses do they believe?
“In which Hadith other than GOD and His verses do they believe?”:
This is the clearest command which Alpine was referring to that Muslims should only follow the word of God and any hadith cannot be followed (or trusted) because it would be a hadith other than “God and His verses”.
Basically the quran is the only 'Hadith' that should be trusted in Islam.
Alpinestars said:
GT03ROB said:
charlie7777 said:
To get back to Ops original question asking what is a moderate Muslim , I would expect any claiming to be so would subscribe to the following declaration. Minimum.
DECLARATION
A. Peace: National Security, Counterterrorism and Foreign Policy
1. We stand for universal peace, love and compassion. We reject violent jihad. We believe we must target the ideology of violent Islamist extremism in order to liberate individuals from the scourge of oppression and terrorism both in Muslim-majority societies and the West.
2. We stand for the protection of all people of all faiths and non-faith who seek freedom from dictatorships, theocracies and Islamist extremists.
3. We reject bigotry, oppression and violence against all people based on any prejudice, including ethnicity, gender, language, belief, religion, sexual orientation and gender expression.
B. Human Rights: Women's Rights and Minority Rights
1. We stand for human rights and justice. We support equal rights and dignity for all people, including minorities. We support the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.
2. We reject tribalism, castes, monarchies and patriarchies and consider all people equal with no birth rights other than human rights. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Muslims don't have an exclusive right to "heaven."
3. We support equal rights for women, including equal rights to inheritance, witness, work, mobility, personal law, education, and employment. Men and women have equal rights in mosques, boards, leadership and all spheres of society. We reject sexism and misogyny.
C. Secular Governance: Freedom of Speech and Religion
1. We are for secular governance, democracy and liberty. We are against political movements in the name of religion. We separate mosque and state. We are loyal to the nations in which we live. We reject the idea of the Islamic state. There is no need for an Islamic caliphate. We oppose institutionalized sharia. Sharia is manmade.
So you want moderate Muslims to sign up to something many native Brits wouldn't? Most Brits seem to support a monarchy, our country is not a secular state, the church & state are not separate, & until very recently men & women did not have equal rights in the church.DECLARATION
A. Peace: National Security, Counterterrorism and Foreign Policy
1. We stand for universal peace, love and compassion. We reject violent jihad. We believe we must target the ideology of violent Islamist extremism in order to liberate individuals from the scourge of oppression and terrorism both in Muslim-majority societies and the West.
2. We stand for the protection of all people of all faiths and non-faith who seek freedom from dictatorships, theocracies and Islamist extremists.
3. We reject bigotry, oppression and violence against all people based on any prejudice, including ethnicity, gender, language, belief, religion, sexual orientation and gender expression.
B. Human Rights: Women's Rights and Minority Rights
1. We stand for human rights and justice. We support equal rights and dignity for all people, including minorities. We support the United Nations Declaration of Human Rights.
2. We reject tribalism, castes, monarchies and patriarchies and consider all people equal with no birth rights other than human rights. All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. Muslims don't have an exclusive right to "heaven."
3. We support equal rights for women, including equal rights to inheritance, witness, work, mobility, personal law, education, and employment. Men and women have equal rights in mosques, boards, leadership and all spheres of society. We reject sexism and misogyny.
C. Secular Governance: Freedom of Speech and Religion
1. We are for secular governance, democracy and liberty. We are against political movements in the name of religion. We separate mosque and state. We are loyal to the nations in which we live. We reject the idea of the Islamic state. There is no need for an Islamic caliphate. We oppose institutionalized sharia. Sharia is manmade.
3. We reject bigotry, against all people based on any prejudice, including ethnicity, belief, religion,
rules out OP and quite a lot of posters on NP&E.
Arab society does not allow equal rights for women. They can argue this point all they want.
(I know there are non-Arab Muslims).
Phil
Allnighter
I don't think getting individuals to sign it is practical or fair for the reasons you say.
For institutions like the MCB who do claim to represent peaceful Islam and to speak for Muslims who wish to live side by side with non-Muslims on an equal basis it seems reasonable to ask that they do at least agree to these basic principles of a free society.
I don't think getting individuals to sign it is practical or fair for the reasons you say.
For institutions like the MCB who do claim to represent peaceful Islam and to speak for Muslims who wish to live side by side with non-Muslims on an equal basis it seems reasonable to ask that they do at least agree to these basic principles of a free society.
AJS- said:
Allnighter
I don't think getting individuals to sign it is practical or fair for the reasons you say.
For institutions like the MCB who do claim to represent peaceful Islam and to speak for Muslims who wish to live side by side with non-Muslims on an equal basis it seems reasonable to ask that they do at least agree to these basic principles of a free society.
The basic principles of a free society have already been agreed upon by Muslims in America. They obey the same laws as non Muslims. It's a given, so why go back to them and ask them for reassurance that they will adhere to the principles of a free society because they happened to be Muslims or appear to be? The whole concept is preposterous.I don't think getting individuals to sign it is practical or fair for the reasons you say.
For institutions like the MCB who do claim to represent peaceful Islam and to speak for Muslims who wish to live side by side with non-Muslims on an equal basis it seems reasonable to ask that they do at least agree to these basic principles of a free society.
Alpinestars said:
I'm interested in why someone would even ask?
I ask because your input is probably having the opposite effect to what you desire. It seems that lots of non-muslims are trying to shut down the debate. The input from acknowledged muslims is generally reassuring.If you are not a muslim, perhaps you should allow real muslims to speak for themselves.
don4l said:
Alpinestars said:
I'm interested in why someone would even ask?
I ask because your input is probably having the opposite effect to what you desire. It seems that lots of non-muslims are trying to shut down the debate. The input from acknowledged muslims is generally reassuring.If you are not a muslim, perhaps you should allow real muslims to speak for themselves.
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