Scottish Referendum / Independence - Vol 6
Discussion
On Friday morning last week, Salmond went slightly up in my estimation with his sentiments of "democracy has spoken, it's a no, let's respect that and move on together". Unfortunately he has now reverted to type and we have the SNP leadership and their baying band of supporters now descrying foul play, unfair tactics, policy-bribed voters, media bias, missed deadlines AND WORST OF ALL Salmond has now said that there are "alternative" routes to independence.
So basically he signs up to democracy only when it serves his purpose; now it hasn't given him what he wanted he wants to do it another way. Can he not respect the opinions of the 55%? Or I guess his opinion is more important that theirs; he is right and the 55% just don't know what's good for them.
I wouldn't mind betting that his actions have begun to disenfranchise a big chunk of the 45%, the whole process is completely unedifying.
Yes campaign: you lost. Deal with it, and move on, and try and do something more productive instead. Hopefully in a few weeks the media will focus on other issues, the mass populace will have moved on, and the only people who care will be a tiny percentage of embittered nationalists crying into their pints.
So basically he signs up to democracy only when it serves his purpose; now it hasn't given him what he wanted he wants to do it another way. Can he not respect the opinions of the 55%? Or I guess his opinion is more important that theirs; he is right and the 55% just don't know what's good for them.
I wouldn't mind betting that his actions have begun to disenfranchise a big chunk of the 45%, the whole process is completely unedifying.
Yes campaign: you lost. Deal with it, and move on, and try and do something more productive instead. Hopefully in a few weeks the media will focus on other issues, the mass populace will have moved on, and the only people who care will be a tiny percentage of embittered nationalists crying into their pints.
PhilboSE said:
I wouldn't mind betting that his actions have begun to disenfranchise a big chunk of the 45%, the whole process is completely unedifying.
Yep. The 45% may agree with Salmond on this particular issue - but what happens if they disagreed with him over some future issue.Would they be happy to find themselves in "the 55%" whose majority opinion/vote is simply dismissed because it doesn't meet with Salmond's approval? If he'll do it over something as important and game changing as independence - he'd have no qualms about imposing a minority view over more trifling matters.
Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 22 September 14:23
Seeing a lot of this '45' nonsense appearin on my FB feed, a few folk changing their FB pic to the blue\white 45 logo. These have now been unfriended, including my cousin, who now living in los Angeles is all for the scots to rise up and have Westminster sacked. I love how he feels he gets an opinion living thousands of miles away.
If the folk of Scotland hate the system and union so much, why not p
s off to a small country that runs like Scotland 'you' want and leave those of us (in the sizeable majority) to stay how we are in the union.
I do like that if it had been yes vote, most of the No voters would have got on with it, but as it went to a No vote, yessers feel it was a stitch up, and I see Salmond is already building the fires of hate by claiming Westminster lied, even though its been only 4 days since the vote.
Happy times.
If the folk of Scotland hate the system and union so much, why not p
s off to a small country that runs like Scotland 'you' want and leave those of us (in the sizeable majority) to stay how we are in the union.I do like that if it had been yes vote, most of the No voters would have got on with it, but as it went to a No vote, yessers feel it was a stitch up, and I see Salmond is already building the fires of hate by claiming Westminster lied, even though its been only 4 days since the vote.
Happy times.
McWigglebum4th said:
The current theory is because salmond signed the edinburgh agreement he is bound by it.
Once he resigns the new leader of scotland is no longer bound by the agreement so we can become have FREEDOM without any of this pesky democracy stuff
Pretty certain it doesn't work like that - otherwise no government would ever be bound to things previous administrations sign up to, surely? Once he resigns the new leader of scotland is no longer bound by the agreement so we can become have FREEDOM without any of this pesky democracy stuff
Treaties, supply contracts, etc. would effectively be impossible to negotiate without ensuring payment in full up front or whatever.
DanL said:
McWigglebum4th said:
The current theory is because salmond signed the edinburgh agreement he is bound by it.
Once he resigns the new leader of scotland is no longer bound by the agreement so we can become have FREEDOM without any of this pesky democracy stuff
Pretty certain it doesn't work like that - otherwise no government would ever be bound to things previous administrations sign up to, surely? Once he resigns the new leader of scotland is no longer bound by the agreement so we can become have FREEDOM without any of this pesky democracy stuff
Treaties, supply contracts, etc. would effectively be impossible to negotiate without ensuring payment in full up front or whatever.
HenryJM said:
xjsdriver said:
You mean the majority of voters over 65, who were constantly misinformed/ lied to by the BBC and the printed press. The majority of people in this demographic do not have the access to alternative media like the younger generations do. In 15 to 20 years those who hold the union dear will be far fewer in number. It was fear over their pensions which drove most elderly people to vote no. The only thing Westminster has been able to do is terrify vulnerable pensioners.....and that makes you proud to be British? If that makes you proud to be British.....you're a shower of white.
Of course that is complete bollucks.Let's start from the basic principle that it's been voted for by 'the majority of voters over 65', that's made up stuff.
The only thing you or anyone else knows is that the vote went No and not Yes. You don't know who voted what, nobody knows - it is not information that is recorded.
Plus, why would they not have a legitimate concern about the safety of their pensions - are they supposed to believe some words in the SNP's white paper, or the fact that the SNP's claim's were unverified. No one knew what was going to happen, hence they backed away from it..
You give this demographic so little credit because it doesn't fit your narritive of how it should have went. If the 16-18 year-old's had voted in majority No, then undoubtedly you and other 'Yes!' people would have pillored them for being too immature and being easily lead by Union scare tactics over university places or suchlike
Predictable really..
r11co said:
Moonhawk said:
I guess some may see it as just another layer of unnecessary bureaucracy.
I voted against devolution at the time as I predicted it would just be League Division 2 politics - where all the second-raters who couldn't win a Westminster seat would end up.
If we'd had no Holyrood we wouldn't just have had an concentrated attempt to split the union. It's a mickey mouse talking shop of ex teachers and social workers, spending money with no accountability for raising it. Notice all it's 'major achievements' start with the word 'free' (tuition fees, prescriptions, care for the elderly etc). I'd imagine most people in Scotland would struggle to name three members outside of Salmond, Sturgeon and Lamont.
Plus retard 45ers bang on about Westminster sleaze, expenses etc, conveniently forgetting the reasons David McLetchie, Henry McLeish and Wendy Alexander vanished from our screens.
gofasterrosssco said:
If the 16-18 year-old's had voted in majority No, then undoubtedly you and other 'Yes!' people would have pillored them for being too immature and being easily lead by Union scare tactics over university places or suchlike
Predictable really..
Going by the criticisms of the Ashcroft sample size, and further poll data set to release in a week or so, there's still time for this to be the case yet.Predictable really..
It would be hilarious watching that worm turn.
Wrathalanche said:
Couple of the guys around me in work were YES voters. Not particularly active, outspoken ones, but had said they were voting yes from about 6 months ago. We weren't interested in debating it amongst ourselves though.
They are both totally embarrassed by this "45" stuff, and just want it all to go away, accepting defeat.
Considering during the campaigning the YES campain all shouted about how the world was watching Scotland and all eyes were on them, do they not realise that the same will be said now, as the world watches a minority of voters defying what was, in the immediate aftermath, called one of the best displays of peaceful democracy in the Western world in recent times?
To be honest, I'm genuinely starting to get a bit creeped out by how cult like some of these groups are becoming. Has anyone seen the video of the food bank donations being handed over at George Square yesterday? A wonderful display, I'll give them that. Some No voters i kno turned out to donate aswell. The only thing was right next to it was a bunch of people brought by the organisers who appeared to be queuing up to take turns to swing a saltire round, while proclaiming to the crowd "THIS IS A YES FLAG, NOT A NO FLAG" ad infintum. There was something so bizarre about that. Can't fault the reason they were there though.
Agree with the use of "cult". Very sinister, the whole yes campain, and not just in the original Latin meaning of the word.They are both totally embarrassed by this "45" stuff, and just want it all to go away, accepting defeat.
Considering during the campaigning the YES campain all shouted about how the world was watching Scotland and all eyes were on them, do they not realise that the same will be said now, as the world watches a minority of voters defying what was, in the immediate aftermath, called one of the best displays of peaceful democracy in the Western world in recent times?
To be honest, I'm genuinely starting to get a bit creeped out by how cult like some of these groups are becoming. Has anyone seen the video of the food bank donations being handed over at George Square yesterday? A wonderful display, I'll give them that. Some No voters i kno turned out to donate aswell. The only thing was right next to it was a bunch of people brought by the organisers who appeared to be queuing up to take turns to swing a saltire round, while proclaiming to the crowd "THIS IS A YES FLAG, NOT A NO FLAG" ad infintum. There was something so bizarre about that. Can't fault the reason they were there though.
From the very top, strategically too. Obviously it had been decided that people must vote yes for a vision, not just a constitutional change. Eg, "vote yes for a fair society" means that, in the minds of the enlightened, people who vote NO don't want a fair/prosperous/caring society. Thus, the seeds of division are sewn.
I could go into fairly lengthy detail about the cult-ness, but I really can't be arsed. Bullet points would be:
Social media/badges/flags/yes s
t everywhere meant you didn't struggle to tell who was a yes voter, they tell you;Rubbishing and discrediting media outlets who are not pro independence;
Silencing business community;
Now the "yes" have moved on to "the 45" for whatever cultish activities are to follow.
Salmond was the very head of it. His defeat speech wasn't one accepting the will of The People, it was designed to look so, however. It was a message to the 45 to never accept that Scotland can never be independent:
I think Scotland is a worse place to live because of the SNP, the referendum, et al. I feel we need a leader to bring us all together again - something to remind us we're all Scots standing under the saltire.
Maybe it's because I had a heavy weekend and I'm having Monday blues, or maybe I've become a little disillusioned with how and where Scotland is going. Maybe I'm seeing too much of the noisy minority (not the 45, the noisy minority of the 45 who refuse to shut up).
Somewhere along the line, I fear, we all forgot "the best interests of Scotland and the UK."
Moonhawk said:
toppstuff said:
In many places other than Glasgow - they don't agree with you by quite a large margin.
Even Glasgow cannot be held up as a beacon. If the Yessers believe that a 10.6% difference in the final result is insignificant enough to ignore it - then surely the 6.98% 'win' by Yes in Glasgow is even more so?The only place where Yes 'won' by a larger margin than No won in the final result was Dundee (where the difference between Yes and No was 14.7%)
simoid said:
I think Scotland is a worse place to live because of the SNP, the referendum, et al. I feel we need a leader to bring us all together again - something to remind us we're all Scots standing under the saltire.
I definitely don't think this. The SNP have lead a very credible Government, with far higher approval ratings than the Westminster leaders. Never in my lifetime have I experience so many people politically engaged to try and change the country for the better. The No vote won, but there are many people saying, ok what can we do now to make Scotland a better place to live?
RandomTask said:
I definitely don't think this. The SNP have lead a very credible Government, with far higher approval ratings than the Westminster leaders.
Never in my lifetime have I experience so many people politically engaged to try and change the country for the better. The No vote won, but there are many people saying, ok what can we do now to make Scotland a better place to live?
To be honest, I'm feeling like Simoid too at the moment, after being pretty pleased about the result over the weekend. Part of it might be because I feel genuinely bullied at the moment, because a grown, intelligent woman with kids, and even my own soon-to-be-mother in law, took exception to something I said on Facebook and are now posting videos and articles about Friday night's violence, and tagging my name in them without explanation, as if I am in some way associated with it. Its getting close to libel territory now. I haven't felt like this since I Was like 10 years old in school - felt like if I open my mouth to say something, I'll get some kind of social demotion. I'm going back to only using FB to show off picures of my dog.Never in my lifetime have I experience so many people politically engaged to try and change the country for the better. The No vote won, but there are many people saying, ok what can we do now to make Scotland a better place to live?
These are people who flooded my news feed everyday for the best part of a year with the articles and editorials from the same old pro-indy sources, which I put up with, even somtimes read with interest, because I don't believe in putting myself into a bubble and shutting out anything that doesn't agree with my view. Also these people were family, so it would have been rude to block/delete.
Now it turns out now, these people were only paying democracy lip service. Their vision of democracy IS one in a bubble, where the participants are cherry picked, and this new interest in taking the country to new better places is only a means to achieving their own, minority-held views.
People are energised after having a taste of campaining, but whats so good about that when they can't be trusted with democracy?
Edited by Wrathalanche on Monday 22 September 16:01
Wrathalanche said:
Interesting/sad stuff
The problem with democracy in the UK (and it applies to England just as much as Scotland)is quite simply that there are too many thick people. People to whom 'facts' are tabloid headlines and to whom any attempt at genuine education on facts is dismissed instantly as propaganda/bullying/lies. A minority of these people are fully aware that they are thick and don't try and influence the world at large but unfortunately far too many of them mistakenly believe that they are intelligent and that the world and economy is black and white. That all our problems can be fixed by taxing the rich or making minimum wage £13. Stop immigration and we will all be rich. Keep our oil in Scotland and we will all be rich. etcIts tiring and the more thick people get angry the more I feel like we could do with a dictatorship (although I don't actually- I'm not thick)
Anyway, just a rant and a disclaimer that this does not apply to all YES voters by any means. There are plenty that voted YES after considering the facts and the omissions and formed a genuine fact-based view of what they wanted. Fair play to them. I am jus talking about the thick ones who form life changing opinions on fresh air and tabloids.
blindswelledrat said:
The problem with democracy in the UK (and it applies to England just as much as Scotland)is quite simply that there are too many thick people.
I often have similar thoughts. And so do others:http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9696402/W...
Winston Churchill said:
“The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”
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