Is the end nigh for the Euro? [vol. 3]
Discussion
Jimboka said:
We all know it will still exist in 1/5/10 years don't we ...
1 year or 100 years. Who knows.But it's doomed to fail.
Given the USA wants to drag NATO into a new European war with Russia, Greece and others teetering on the edge of making their debt payments month by month, it's not looking rosy is it
If all goes well I can see eur/usd being more like 0.5. Usd isn't exactly super rosy either but they have tanks, bombs and icbm and reserve currency. Euro has not much, though they are now asking for an army so that tells you all you need to know
I am not sure if this really belongs here but I have just had a flyer posted through the door informing me that the official opening of the ECB in Frankfurt will be held on the 18th March.
What is interesting though, is the flyer is from the Blockupy f
kwits informing me that they will be using the school next to my house as the meeting point (they wanted to use the schools gym but they were told to bugger off) before marching down the road to the ECB to, in their words, disrupt the opening party.
The flyer reads like a Uni Socialist newspaper and is full of glaring mistakes and idiocy encompassing everything from asylum seekers, to how Greece is being delt with and the Troika along with an overbearing wiff of just how terrible the Euro and capitalism is.
Does anyone have any ideas for banners/posters etc that could/should be hung from my balcony or should I just accept that the end of the Euro is nigh and join them
What is interesting though, is the flyer is from the Blockupy f
kwits informing me that they will be using the school next to my house as the meeting point (they wanted to use the schools gym but they were told to bugger off) before marching down the road to the ECB to, in their words, disrupt the opening party.The flyer reads like a Uni Socialist newspaper and is full of glaring mistakes and idiocy encompassing everything from asylum seekers, to how Greece is being delt with and the Troika along with an overbearing wiff of just how terrible the Euro and capitalism is.
Does anyone have any ideas for banners/posters etc that could/should be hung from my balcony or should I just accept that the end of the Euro is nigh and join them
AstonZagato said:
Not necessarily. If Europe implements fiscal union, political union and fiscal transfers, then it can work. Otherwise it is doomed.
Sure, if the people allow it.But I don't think they'll want to.
So by force it'll survive. The worlds worst nightmare. A neo-socialist Europe. Facist controlling non democratic government. Just what Hitler wanted but 80 years later.
911Gary said:
AstonZagato said:
Not necessarily. If Europe implements fiscal union, political union and fiscal transfers, then it can work. Otherwise it is doomed.
Oh I see communism will save them??G
The US has political union, fiscal union and fiscal transfers between the individual states. I don't think I'd mark them down as communists.
However, I'd agree that United States of Europe would be a socialist leaning entity.
Mr Whippy said:
AstonZagato said:
Not necessarily. If Europe implements fiscal union, political union and fiscal transfers, then it can work. Otherwise it is doomed.
Sure, if the people allow it.But I don't think they'll want to.
So by force it'll survive. The worlds worst nightmare. A neo-socialist Europe. Facist controlling non democratic government. Just what Hitler wanted but 80 years later.
This is my biggest beef with the Euro. To succeed, it needs the EU to become a superstate. No-one, other than the ruling elite, wants that. But the "ever closer union" rolls on regardless.
AstonZagato said:
I'm not sure they would do it by force but rather by pulling the wool over the eyes of the electorate. Some tweaks to the treaties, some constitutional editing carried out by bureaucrats with governments saying that the changes are not significant enough to warrant referenda.
This is my biggest beef with the Euro. To succeed, it needs the EU to become a superstate. No-one, other than the ruling elite, wants that. But the "ever closer union" rolls on regardless.
curently i would agree. evolution would suggest the end game if we do not all kill each other would tend toward a one world nation,but thousands of years in the future. attempting to ram change down peoples throats in a short time scale as opposed to natural evolution is a recipe for disaster as has been proven time and time again in the short history of human beings.This is my biggest beef with the Euro. To succeed, it needs the EU to become a superstate. No-one, other than the ruling elite, wants that. But the "ever closer union" rolls on regardless.
AstonZagato said:
I'm not sure they would do it by force but rather by pulling the wool over the eyes of the electorate. Some tweaks to the treaties, some constitutional editing carried out by bureaucrats with governments saying that the changes are not significant enough to warrant referenda.
This is my biggest beef with the Euro. To succeed, it needs the EU to become a superstate. No-one, other than the ruling elite, wants that. But the "ever closer union" rolls on regardless.
I agree. If the rest of Europe was like the UK electorate I'd say wool over eyes would work pretty well.This is my biggest beef with the Euro. To succeed, it needs the EU to become a superstate. No-one, other than the ruling elite, wants that. But the "ever closer union" rolls on regardless.
But unfortunately for the EU dictators the varying populations of the EU member countries are a bit more savvy than us. They've had the full force of severe socio economic disruptions in recent memory or on their doorsteps and seem happier to stand up and complain when it's not going how they like.
But hey, we have a nice sabre rattling/war with Russia coming up.
"the only way to defeat tyranny and make freedom prevail will be full union!"
"Long live our freedom to be a neo socialist totalitarian dictatorship!" Cough cough.
Scary times. I really hope the UKIP win and we get out of the whole thing asap.
Mr Whippy said:
Scary times. I really hope the UKIP win and we get out of the whole thing asap.
UKIP win what? The general election? I hope there's fairies at the bottom of my garden too...An In/Out referendum on the other hand is perfectly winnable, but it will not have a huge deal to do with UKIP. People like Dan Hannan MEP have far stronger arguments and the political ability to win arguments.
Anyway, for this to occur we (sadly) need a Conservative majority. I don't think it's achievable under a LibDim/Tory coalition. So don't hold your breath for 2017.
The actual economics of a political union across Europe are bad enough, but the politics of it are totally unwinnable in my view - at least democratically
Look at all the small regional issues, where a particular region wants out of a Nation. Elements of Northern Ireland, 40% of the Scotland, The Basques, Aquitaine to return to The English Crown (ok I made that one up)
Now try sweeping all those national and sub national interests together - can't happen
Secondly there has NEVER been a worse time to try to do it. The Greeks, Italians, Spanish, Irish, French and to some extent even the Germans have all seen around 30% of their electorates actively campaigning for non EU democractic parties.
The Economic legacy of the Eurozone is effectively pushing away the desire in the demos for greater political union.
In my view you can only deliver MORE Europe in good times, in poor economic times people will be too adverse to a closer Union.
Andy Zarse said:
UKIP win what? The general election? I hope there's fairies at the bottom of my garden too...
An In/Out referendum on the other hand is perfectly winnable, but it will not have a huge deal to do with UKIP. People like Dan Hannan MEP have far stronger arguments and the political ability to win arguments.
Anyway, for this to occur we (sadly) need a Conservative majority. I don't think it's achievable under a LibDim/Tory coalition. So don't hold your breath for 2017.
All I know right now is that I'd personally prefer to be out and my kids and their kids to be out. Socialism has never worked well before and the EU version is looking to down the 'bad' socialism route with fat greedy unelected pigs at the helm from the off.An In/Out referendum on the other hand is perfectly winnable, but it will not have a huge deal to do with UKIP. People like Dan Hannan MEP have far stronger arguments and the political ability to win arguments.
Anyway, for this to occur we (sadly) need a Conservative majority. I don't think it's achievable under a LibDim/Tory coalition. So don't hold your breath for 2017.
Conservatives aren't offering a definite out, or even a legally guaranteed referendum, they're offering the chance of a choice which they'll easily go back on later to suit their needs.
They've all lied enough already. They've all had chance enough to have a referendum already.
I just want to vote out now and have done. No more lies and excuses and bulls
t!AstonZagato said:
Mr Whippy said:
Jimboka said:
We all know it will still exist in 1/5/10 years don't we ...
1 year or 100 years. Who knows.But it's doomed to fail.
Mr Whippy said:
Andy Zarse said:
UKIP win what? The general election? I hope there's fairies at the bottom of my garden too...
An In/Out referendum on the other hand is perfectly winnable, but it will not have a huge deal to do with UKIP. People like Dan Hannan MEP have far stronger arguments and the political ability to win arguments.
Anyway, for this to occur we (sadly) need a Conservative majority. I don't think it's achievable under a LibDim/Tory coalition. So don't hold your breath for 2017.
All I know right now is that I'd personally prefer to be out and my kids and their kids to be out. Socialism has never worked well before and the EU version is looking to down the 'bad' socialism route with fat greedy unelected pigs at the helm from the off.An In/Out referendum on the other hand is perfectly winnable, but it will not have a huge deal to do with UKIP. People like Dan Hannan MEP have far stronger arguments and the political ability to win arguments.
Anyway, for this to occur we (sadly) need a Conservative majority. I don't think it's achievable under a LibDim/Tory coalition. So don't hold your breath for 2017.
Conservatives aren't offering a definite out, or even a legally guaranteed referendum, they're offering the chance of a choice which they'll easily go back on later to suit their needs.
They've all lied enough already. They've all had chance enough to have a referendum already.
I just want to vote out now and have done. No more lies and excuses and bulls
t!The best, indeed only, chance of getting a referendum is to vote Tory; I speak as someone who has voted UKIP as a protest vote in the past.
Andy Zarse said:
Well so would I. The EU is everything you have said above; I hate the EU. It's an out of date idea run by out of date idiots. I want us OUT in capital letters!
The best, indeed only, chance of getting a referendum is to vote Tory; I speak as someone who has voted UKIP as a protest vote in the past.
It will be interesting to see what happens if there is a referendum and the country decides to stay in the EU, which I think is the most likely outcome. Would the democratic decision of the UK people be respected for what it is? Or will there be a similar response to that seen in Scotland where the SNP supporters have been straight back on the case trying to get another vote, and will keep doing so until they get a vote in their favour which will then become the 'settled will of the Scottish people', forever. The best, indeed only, chance of getting a referendum is to vote Tory; I speak as someone who has voted UKIP as a protest vote in the past.
If the UK votes to stay part of the EU that should be an end to the debate for at least a generation imo.
I think that is the real problem with the current EU relationship. It has no democratic legitimacy. My generation (I am early 40's) have never had a chance to vote on it.
I would hope that a sensible referendum, with proper arguments on both sides would indeed settle the question.
Additionally, I fail to see why our politicians cannot deliver this. Cameron made much capital out of promising a referendum, surely he sees the potential in holding one.
I honestly couldn't say whether I'd be in or out. I dislike a good many things about the EU, from its staggering waste, via CAP to its poor record on foreign policy. But would I really be prepared to vote out.... I am not certain.
RYH64E said:
If the UK votes to stay part of the EU that should be an end to the debate for at least a generation imo.
My view is the UK will probably vote to leave the EU, especially as we witness the EZ plunge deeper into crisis and the steps the EU have to take towards closer union in order to make the Euro work. Even if we vote to stay in, it will be a very close run thing and concessions will have to be made to voters in order to secure a YES vote. Sound familiar?
Really, I simply don't see how it is possible to remain a member of the EU without being a full-blown member of the Eurozone, even in the medium term. It's not 1974 any more. Some sort of halfway house will have to be found for refuseniks like the UK, and it gives us a great opportunity to loosen our ties to the horrid behemoth but keep our free trade agreements.
People like you with cosy assumptions about foregone democratic outcomes end up with much egg on face, such as happened in the scotch referendum.
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