Islam and the West
Discussion
Pesty said:
Countdown said:
Just some general points & questions about "Islam" and "The West";
Obama is apparently asking Congress for permission to give $500m to "moderate" Sunnis in Syria. This will annoy the Syrians, the Iranians, and ISIS.
In Iraq the US and the UK are aligning themselves with the Shias and Iran against ISIS and as a result also against the "moderate" Sunnis.
As a result of the above we are both supporting and opposing the Saudis in different spheres.
If somebody could explain to me what the above policies are meant to achieve I'd be grateful. It seems like we're going out of our way to p155 off as many people as we can. I'd also be interested in knowing why we feel the need to get involved but most of the western world couldn't give two hoots.
No idea. Then add the mess in Russia where we are doing different again.Obama is apparently asking Congress for permission to give $500m to "moderate" Sunnis in Syria. This will annoy the Syrians, the Iranians, and ISIS.
In Iraq the US and the UK are aligning themselves with the Shias and Iran against ISIS and as a result also against the "moderate" Sunnis.
As a result of the above we are both supporting and opposing the Saudis in different spheres.
If somebody could explain to me what the above policies are meant to achieve I'd be grateful. It seems like we're going out of our way to p155 off as many people as we can. I'd also be interested in knowing why we feel the need to get involved but most of the western world couldn't give two hoots.
A lot if us asked the same the last few times we intervened . Seems like madness to me. Politicians wanting a legacy? Do they think it will get them votes?
I was hoping you could tell us.
supersingle said:
It's a bit Machiavellian but it could be to keep the Muslim world divided and fighting itself rather than us. That may be granting Western leaders too much credit.
I think that's about the only thing that makes sense well it doesn't and will only end up with better trained better armed terrorist but I can't think of any other reason.This all leads back to interfering in afgan all those years ago. We end up fighting people we helped.
supersingle said:
It's a bit Machiavellian but it could be to keep the Muslim world divided and fighting itself rather than us. That may be granting Western leaders too much credit.
If the West had its own major issues to focus on, local strife or natural disasters, they would be less inclined to poke their nose into ME affairs. If the West had sufficient energy resources, if the West was super broke and could not borrow to fund these wars - that would influence thinking.Countdown said:
Just some general points & questions about "Islam" and "The West";
Obama is apparently asking Congress for permission to give $500m to "moderate" Sunnis in Syria. This will annoy the Syrians, the Iranians, and ISIS.
In Iraq the US and the UK are aligning themselves with the Shias and Iran against ISIS and as a result also against the "moderate" Sunnis.
As a result of the above we are both supporting and opposing the Saudis in different spheres.
If somebody could explain to me what the above policies are meant to achieve I'd be grateful. It seems like we're going out of our way to p155 off as many people as we can. I'd also be interested in knowing why we feel the need to get involved but most of the western world couldn't give two hoots.
Those are good questions. The foreign policy decisions do seem tangled. Maybe that is why nothing concrete seems to have happened yet? Money or arms to support moderates? How do you even define moderate in that context? Why arm one side when it is such a fluid theatre? Why arm anyone? Is there anything at all America could do considering how they are viewed ideologically?Obama is apparently asking Congress for permission to give $500m to "moderate" Sunnis in Syria. This will annoy the Syrians, the Iranians, and ISIS.
In Iraq the US and the UK are aligning themselves with the Shias and Iran against ISIS and as a result also against the "moderate" Sunnis.
As a result of the above we are both supporting and opposing the Saudis in different spheres.
If somebody could explain to me what the above policies are meant to achieve I'd be grateful. It seems like we're going out of our way to p155 off as many people as we can. I'd also be interested in knowing why we feel the need to get involved but most of the western world couldn't give two hoots.
One thought I had from your comment... There are western attitudes, sure. But I'm not sure we can say the western world. I feel there is one world and we are all in it. You see no borders from space. We have seen how a handful of individuals can use technology to bring death and devastation on a massive scale. So I can't see how we can help. But I think we also can't just do nothing. Either way someone will wind someone else up into a mental state where they will do something terrible.
technogogo said:
<snip>One thought I had from your comment... There are western attitudes, sure. But I'm not sure we can say the western world. I feel there is one world and we are all in it. You see no borders from space. We have seen how a handful of individuals can use technology to bring death and devastation on a massive scale. So I can't see how we can help. But I think we also can't just do nothing. Either way someone will wind someone else up into a mental state where they will do something terrible.
In principle I agree with what you're saying. But, in practice, our involvement has been driven primarily by national interest, not because of any moral reason (although the politicians have used "moral" reasons when they've tried to sell our interference to the general public). This means that we've supported (and continue) to support dictatorships when we've wanted to, and disowned them on moral grounds when they've become superfluous.The thing is, the people they've repressed aren't stupid. They will remember the support that we've given/gave to the Saudis, the egyptian military, Gaddafi, Saddam (whilst at the same time preaching about freedom, democracy, and western values). And they will wait for an opportunity to strike back at us.
If you f
k with others they will fk with you. Not because of some mythical sky fairy but because they remember burying their fathers/brothers/sons and we supported the person that killed them.
Mermaid said:
Mr Countdown should be in charge of PR for Islam. 
The answer to everything you see in the tabloids can be summed up as follows;"No it isn't/doesn't, but some people are exceptionally stupid".
This applies to almost every single Daily mail headline. e.g
"Speeding kills"
"Chocolate makes you fat"
"Islam is incompatible with the West"
My personal view is that very few people are ever willing to put their head above the parapet but here goes with my mine.
I'm replying to the OP's post.
Islam is an ideology which is not aligned with Western ideologies, basic human rights or the rights of women.
I will state straight away that I am an atheist and have no particular affiliation to any religion.
My boss is a Baha'i and his family fled Iran when the extremist Muslims took control after the Shah was ousted. His Dad's business was taken off him and he was literally thrown in the street. They lived under the military, the police(military), the secret police, then a force of people who no one knew who controlled them but would enforce religious laws with guns. His family fled to Pakistan when he was a young boy, then eventually settled in Australia.
His experiences of living in Iran never cease to amaze me- over a BBQ he told me of a time he visited Tehran when an air raid was going on - to this day he still loves fireworks!!
In short any extremist religious view is dangerous, but because of their particular beliefs Islam is especially worrying, I am not an Islamophobe, a phobia is an irrational belief, being worried about Islam is not irrational.
Andy
I'm replying to the OP's post.
Islam is an ideology which is not aligned with Western ideologies, basic human rights or the rights of women.
I will state straight away that I am an atheist and have no particular affiliation to any religion.
My boss is a Baha'i and his family fled Iran when the extremist Muslims took control after the Shah was ousted. His Dad's business was taken off him and he was literally thrown in the street. They lived under the military, the police(military), the secret police, then a force of people who no one knew who controlled them but would enforce religious laws with guns. His family fled to Pakistan when he was a young boy, then eventually settled in Australia.
His experiences of living in Iran never cease to amaze me- over a BBQ he told me of a time he visited Tehran when an air raid was going on - to this day he still loves fireworks!!
In short any extremist religious view is dangerous, but because of their particular beliefs Islam is especially worrying, I am not an Islamophobe, a phobia is an irrational belief, being worried about Islam is not irrational.
Andy
Avagoodweegend said:
Islam is an ideology which is not aligned with Western ideologies, basic human rights or the rights of women.
You see the exact same problems in countries that aren't islamic. For example western ideologies, human rights, or the rights of women aren't exactly a strong point in most African, Latin American, or Asian countries, regardless of religion.Religion is substantially irrelevant. You need an educated population and a democracy to create a situation where human rights prosper.
Countdown said:
Religion is substantially irrelevant. You need an educated population and a democracy to create a situation where human rights prosper.
What you need and what you have.An educated population & democracy are a few decades away for some, in the meantime religion prevails.
'We are different countries, we have different histories, different stages of development"
Pesty said:
Exactly my point I'm making. Hypocrisy the stories are similar although in this case we do actually know the murderer was a Muslim we know nothing at all about the other case. But speculation or accusations on that case is fine. the trial happened and the murder happened yet we only hear about it at the sentence stage. Why wasn't this news? Woman murdered in the street the same. Was this plastered around the world?
There are many murders committed by Muslims which don't make the news and there are many Muslim murder victims who don't make the news; same as for whites, blacks etc... Sometimes Muslims will kill non-Muslims when it has nothing to do with race and vice versa - I can only postulate that the other media outlets thought this was yet another prostitute murder (and nothing to do with race/religion) and hence they didn't feel the need to report it as a "race crime." [which may or may not be correct] However the Daily Mail does what it does best and try and turn this into something which it is (probably) not. This may not even have made the Daily Mail if the culrpit wasn't a Muslim and if the prosecutor wasn't trying to get st to stick to a wall because he didn't have any other ideas.Do you propose that every murder that is committed by a Muslim be publicised widely because the culprit happens to be Muslim? What if the reason for murder has nothing to do with race/religion - who decides? If people are feeling paranoid; let me tell you there are lots of Muslims killed in the UK by non-Muslim people which isn't reported as a race crime (and quite rightly so.) However I am sure that some simple-minded Muslims would claim ALL of these attacks are "race related." [which they are obviously not]
For the record; I'm not saying which case should have got different amounts of media coverage; but I was merely pointing out that some people are perfectly capable of critically appraising a news story and looking for holes in the story/evidence, but are seemingly unable to do so when the story suits their own agenda (whatever side of the fence they are on.) I just think this is unhealthy (for everyone.) I'm not talking to you specifically pesty... just rhetorically.
Edited by zuby84 on Saturday 28th June 19:06
zuby84 said:
..Do you propose that every murder that is committed by a Muslim be publicised widely because the culprit happens to be Muslim? What if the reason for murder has nothing to do with race/religion - who decides? [which they are obviously not]
Mosque mentioned = Religion.
"A Muslim who stabbed a pregnant Romanian prostitute to death after warning her not to work near a mosque was jailed for at least 29 years today"
Edited by Mermaid on Saturday 28th June 19:02
Mermaid said:
Mosque mentioned = Religion.
"A Muslim who stabbed a pregnant Romanian prostitute to death after warning her not to work near a mosque was jailed for at least 29 years today"
]
The only way he could have been less of a Muslim was if the police found him tucking into a quarter pounder whilst chanting "E! E! EDL!!!"
zuby84 said:
Are you joking?
Perhaps I did not explain myself well. if he was not a devout Muslim, would it have mattered to him where she was practising? We don't hear about too many of such murders at other locations, do we? Are you saying religion had absolutely no bearing on this? Happy to be corrected on this.
Mermaid said:
Perhaps I did not explain myself well. if he was not a devout Muslim, would it have mattered to him where she was practising? We don't hear about too many of such murders at other locations, do we?
Are you saying religion had absolutely no bearing on this? Happy to be corrected on this.
I don't know what the motive was for this murder (and nor does anyone apart from the culprit) - The fact that the Daily Mail is saying she was killed BECAUSE she was near a mosque/religion does not make it true I am afraid; no matter how much some people want that to be the case.Are you saying religion had absolutely no bearing on this? Happy to be corrected on this.
This may have been the case OR it could have been one of the many other countless yet sad prostitute murders which occur in the UK. I don't know. Neither do you. The prosecutor doesn't know and yes the almighty Daily Mail doesn't even know if religion had a bearing on this murder (no matter how it dresses up conjecture as fact.)
Pesty did touch on the subject as to how headlines are over sensationalistic and as a result *can be* hugely inaccurate. You asked why we don't hear of any other similar murders; is it maybe because if this murder didn't occur next to a mosque; the Daily Mail might not have printed it? I don't know the answer...
You believe that she was murdered [by a Muslim] BECAUSE she was working next to a mosque and the Daily Mail reported it as fact; that's your prerogative. The sad thing is that most people who have read the Daily Mail headline also now think that a "maybe" is a fact - and then people wonder why there is so much distrust between some Muslims and non-Muslims.
All I am pointing out the hypocrisy with people who believe everything in the media when it suits themselves but yet have the ability to play devil's advocate when they come across something which doesn't fit in with their pre-conceived ideas. Dangerous.
Mermaid said:
Countdown said:
Religion is substantially irrelevant. You need an educated population and a democracy to create a situation where human rights prosper.
What you need and what you have.An educated population & democracy are a few decades away for some, in the meantime religion prevails.
'We are different countries, we have different histories, different stages of development"
I lived in Iran in the 70's and can assure you on a day-to-day basis it was pretty developed.
That was prior to Khomeini who had different ideas of how to run a country.
HoHoHo said:
Perhaps we have some leaders who simply refuse to 'develop' a country as quickly as they could for their own gain?
I lived in Iran in the 70's and can assure you on a day-to-day basis it was pretty developed.
That was prior to Khomeini who had different ideas of how to run a country.
Genuine question - if it was that good why was the Shah overthrown?I lived in Iran in the 70's and can assure you on a day-to-day basis it was pretty developed.
That was prior to Khomeini who had different ideas of how to run a country.
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