Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)

[119]

bhstewie said:

AmyRichardson said:

Read that early this AM; I can feel for Starmer, he must want to shake these people whilst shouting "2019! 2019!! Is your memory that f*&£ing short!"

Pretty much this.

That said the last time I saw a union jack it was hung from a bridge over a dual carriageway with "Britain First" written all over it.

I think it's a reasonable article if you look past the headline and read and think about some of the points made.

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

[Wombat3]

S600BSB said:

Wombat3 said:

Doesn't tell you anything that we didn't already know about large chunks of the Labour movement. Nothing new to see either & why is anyone surprised by this?

As always people have short memories, but Leopards don't change their spots.

You certainly seem the type to have a flag in your garden Wombat.

Perhaps you'd like to expand on that?

[biggbn]

119 said:

bhstewie said:

AmyRichardson said:

Read that early this AM; I can feel for Starmer, he must want to shake these people whilst shouting "2019! 2019!! Is your memory that f*&£ing short!"

Pretty much this.

That said the last time I saw a union jack it was hung from a bridge over a dual carriageway with "Britain First" written all over it.

I think it's a reasonable article if you look past the headline and read and think about some of the points made.

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

Perhaps they view the flag slightly differently from a historic perspective? The adoption of flags etc is just a further propagation of division in my eyes, they have long been hijacked by organisations with rather inward looking agendas the world over. Burn the bloody lot of them, literally flags of inconvenience these days....

[borcy]

119 said:

bhstewie said:

AmyRichardson said:

Read that early this AM; I can feel for Starmer, he must want to shake these people whilst shouting "2019! 2019!! Is your memory that f*&£ing short!"

Pretty much this.

That said the last time I saw a union jack it was hung from a bridge over a dual carriageway with "Britain First" written all over it.

I think it's a reasonable article if you look past the headline and read and think about some of the points made.

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

Seems quite odd but I think it should be universally flown. The more people and different people that use it, the less it becomes associated with extreme views.

[Wombat3]

borcy said:

119 said:

bhstewie said:

AmyRichardson said:

Read that early this AM; I can feel for Starmer, he must want to shake these people whilst shouting "2019! 2019!! Is your memory that f*&£ing short!"

Pretty much this.

That said the last time I saw a union jack it was hung from a bridge over a dual carriageway with "Britain First" written all over it.

I think it's a reasonable article if you look past the headline and read and think about some of the points made.

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

Seems quite odd but I think it should be universally flown. The more people and different people that use it, the less it becomes associated with extreme views.

Exactly this.

[biggbn]

Wombat3 said:

borcy said:

119 said:

bhstewie said:

AmyRichardson said:

Read that early this AM; I can feel for Starmer, he must want to shake these people whilst shouting "2019! 2019!! Is your memory that f*&£ing short!"

Pretty much this.

That said the last time I saw a union jack it was hung from a bridge over a dual carriageway with "Britain First" written all over it.

I think it's a reasonable article if you look past the headline and read and think about some of the points made.

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

Seems quite odd but I think it should be universally flown. The more people and different people that use it, the less it becomes associated with extreme views.

Exactly this.

That is a good point regardless of my feelings towards flags, national 'pride' etc... I do wonder if the weight of history is too great for some flags to work as a unifier though? Genuine observation/question.

[bitchstewie]

119 said:

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

I'm not sure it's a case of not accepting it so much as whether it's a priority for them.

I've no problem at all with our flag but I'm more concerned with who's going to fix NHS waiting lists than I am with whose leaflet has the most red white and blue on it.

I don't quite get the obsession with flags if I'm honest.

[768]

The argument that Labour's anti-union flag sentiment is anti all flags doesn't wash. They're obsessed with flags if it's the right one.

[williamp]

They love flags. They are the only political party I know who have their own anthem.

Its sung at the end of their conferences by everyone.

It is "The Red Fag"


A song about the "joys" of socialism. If that isnt a red flag on election time there will be others.

[biggbn]

768 said:

The argument that Labour's anti-union flag sentiment is anti all flags doesn't wash. They're obsessed with flags if it's the right one.

Is anyone suggesting Labour is anti Union flag or anti all flags? It seems some people don't like the Union Flag. Starmer, and I can't abide him, spoke quite passionately about the English flag through the week didn't he?

It's this kind of sweeping generalisation that is so indicative of the binary positions many seem desperate to cling to these days.

[carlo996]

119 said:

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

It’s always been strange to me that you’d reside in a country which you felt didn’t represent you. Perhaps some put their morals aside for financial benefits huh?

[bitchstewie]

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

[biggbn]

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

I want my country back....

[carlo996]

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

[bitchstewie]

I've no issue with it personally but equally "number of flags on the leaflets" is very low down on the list of things I'd consider when deciding who to vote for.

Surrounding yourself with flags doesn't compensate for being crooked.

[2xChevrons]

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

How is having a flag (or two, or four) behind you during official statements and photo ops "supporting the nation"? Not so long ago such things were seen as oddly un-British and the preserve of try-hard adolescent nations like the French or the Americans. It's a particularly post-2016 development that Starmer has adopted as part of his demonstrative 'not-Corbyn signalling'.

Personally I'd much rather support a party that embodied what I see as British values and wanted to do what I think would make Britain a better place to live and a place to be proud of and had zero Union Jack imagery rather than support one that plastered and draped itself in the red white and blue while pissing all over our supposed values and institutions and apparently aiming to make the nation more tawdry, ramshackle, venal and unpleasant.

As a Labour MP quoted in the article put it "You don’t need to prove your patriotism by wrapping yourself in the Union Jack."

No one mentioned in the article is recoiling from the Jack on sight like vampires before garlic. No one is quoted as saying anything dismissive about it or its general symbolism.

All the article raises is questions of branding - that the leaflets it looks too much like Conservative material and don't have impactful Labour imagery that is usually associated with the Party (red colour, rose symbol) and that certain demographics are mostly familiar with Union Jack-themed pamphlets coming through their letterboxes or bring thrust at them on street corners as being from the BNP or BF, not the Labour Party.

Given the Union Jack's history I'm sure there are some Labour members and voters who consider it a 'butcher's apron'. In fact I know there are because I've met them. But that's not what is being discussed in the article.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Saturday 30th March 12:52

[biggbn]

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

Why would you? I love the place I live but feel no particular connection with other British, Scottish, Welsh or Irish people, all of whom are apparently in my 'bloodline'. I genuinely don't 'get it'. Why are people pround of a country, a nationality, one they didn't earn, didn't work for, were just fortuitous, or otherwise, to be born there. It seems like such an alien concept to me. If I see someone across the street struggling, I'll go help, not because they are a brit, or scot, whatever, but because they are another human being in need of help. Others may disagree, as they are unlikely to help unless the persons distress is affecting them or theirs directly as seems quite common these days. Yet many of those people are 'proud' of 'their' country...?

[119]

To be honest, I don’t remember seeing the flag on any parties promotional election material.

[biggbn]

2xChevrons said:

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

How is having a flag (or two, or four) behind you during official statements and photo ops "supporting the nation"? Not so long ago such things were seen as oddly un-British and the preserve of try-hard adolescent nations like the French or the Americans. It's a particularly post-2016 development that Starmer has adopted as part of his demonstrative 'not-Corbyn signalling'.

As a Labour MP quoted in the article put it "You don’t need to prove your patriotism by wrapping yourself in the Union Jack."

No one mentioned in the article is recoiling from the Jack on sight like vampires before garlic. No one is quoted as saying anything dismissive about it or its general symbolism.

All the article raises is questions of branding - that the leaflets it looks too much like Conservative material and don't have impactful Labour imagery that is usually associated with the Party (red colour, rose symbol) and that certain demographics are mostly familiar with Union Jack-themed pamphlets coming through their letterboxes or bring thrust at them on street corners as being from the BNP or BF, not the Labour Party.

Given the Union Jack's history I'm sure there are some Labour members and voters who consider it a 'butcher's apron'. In fact I know there are because I've met them. But that's not what is being discussed in the article.

Chev, I've mentioned 'the butchers apron' here before, but apparently I, and now you, are the only members of PH who are aware of the flags sordid reputation and our, sorry to include you in this, knowledge marks us out as a certain type...

[bitchstewie]

biggbn said:

I want my country back....

Just don't ask them "back from who?"