Can Sir Keir Starmer revive the Labour Party? (Vol. 2)

[borcy]

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

Indeed, perhaps some find the concept of countries in every sense unpalatable or perhap just some countries. Countries and their qwerks do bind people together in similarity.

[bitchstewie]

How many of you have a flag on display somewhere?

[biggbn]

borcy said:

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

Indeed, perhaps some find the concept of countries in every sense unpalatable or perhap just some countries. Countries and their qwerks do bind people together in similarity.

I find being a human being amongst other human beings is quite a binding sensation, one that is often disturbed by a bellow of 'where are you from then....?'

I do however accept that for many the sense of belonging to a country, a town, a club of some sort can give a sense of belonging, almost familial in some cases, and a sense of pride. I am not saying that it is all negative, far from it, just that it doesn't work for me. Look at my 'country', permanently divided by Union Flags and St. Andrew's crosses, religions, football teams, its all rather sinister and divisive. We are all different, but we are all the same. Celebrate the differences and stop focusing on them to divide us

[119]

bhstewie said:

How many of you have a flag on display somewhere?

What point are you trying to make exactly?

[Vanden Saab]

2xChevrons said:

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

How is having a flag (or two, or four) behind you during official statements and photo ops "supporting the nation"? Not so long ago such things were seen as oddly un-British and the preserve of try-hard adolescent nations like the French or the Americans. It's a particularly post-2016 development that Starmer has adopted as part of his demonstrative 'not-Corbyn signalling'.

Personally I'd much rather support a party that embodied what I see as British values and wanted to do what I think would make Britain a better place to live and a place to be proud of and had zero Union Jack imagery rather than support one that plastered and draped itself in the red white and blue while pissing all over our supposed values and institutions and apparently aiming to make the nation more tawdry, ramshackle, venal and unpleasant.

As a Labour MP quoted in the article put it "You don’t need to prove your patriotism by wrapping yourself in the Union Jack."

No one mentioned in the article is recoiling from the Jack on sight like vampires before garlic. No one is quoted as saying anything dismissive about it or its general symbolism.

All the article raises is questions of branding - that the leaflets it looks too much like Conservative material and don't have impactful Labour imagery that is usually associated with the Party (red colour, rose symbol) and that certain demographics are mostly familiar with Union Jack-themed pamphlets coming through their letterboxes or bring thrust at them on street corners as being from the BNP or BF, not the Labour Party.

Given the Union Jack's history I'm sure there are some Labour members and voters who consider it a 'butcher's apron'. In fact I know there are because I've met them. But that's not what is being discussed in the article.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Saturday 30th March 12:52

How 'not so long ago' are you thinking?

[borcy]

biggbn said:

borcy said:

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

Indeed, perhaps some find the concept of countries in every sense unpalatable or perhap just some countries. Countries and their qwerks do bind people together in similarity.

I find being a human being amongst other human beings is quite a binding sensation, one that is often disturbed by a bellow of 'where are you from then....?'

I do however accept that for many the sense of belonging to a country, a town, a club of some sort can give a sense of belonging, almost familial in some cases, and a sense of pride. I am not saying that it is all negative, far from it, just that it doesn't work for me. Look at my 'country', permanently divided by Union Flags and St. Andrew's crosses, religions, football teams, its all rather sinister and divisive. We are all different, but we are all the same. Celebrate the differences and stop focusing on them to divide us

Yes, perhaps i should have added; but not everyone.

[biggbn]

borcy said:

biggbn said:

borcy said:

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

There was a point where every single time you'd see a Conservative MP or Minister on TV they'd have a union jack flag behind them.

I think Starmer is trying to appeal to the people who consider that kind of thing important.

You mean supporting the nation you reside in? Why wouldn’t you?

Indeed, perhaps some find the concept of countries in every sense unpalatable or perhap just some countries. Countries and their qwerks do bind people together in similarity.

I find being a human being amongst other human beings is quite a binding sensation, one that is often disturbed by a bellow of 'where are you from then....?'

I do however accept that for many the sense of belonging to a country, a town, a club of some sort can give a sense of belonging, almost familial in some cases, and a sense of pride. I am not saying that it is all negative, far from it, just that it doesn't work for me. Look at my 'country', permanently divided by Union Flags and St. Andrew's crosses, religions, football teams, its all rather sinister and divisive. We are all different, but we are all the same. Celebrate the differences and stop focusing on them to divide us

Yes, perhaps i should have added; but not everyone.

[bitchstewie]

119 said:

bhstewie said:

How many of you have a flag on display somewhere?

What point are you trying to make exactly?

If people see it as some sort of mark of how patriotic a politician or party is I'm curious if they have one on display themselves.

I'm always surprised at the sheer volume of flags on display in the US but we just aren't that sort of culture.

[borcy]

bhstewie said:

119 said:

bhstewie said:

How many of you have a flag on display somewhere?

What point are you trying to make exactly?

If people see it as some sort of mark of how patriotic a politician or party is I'm curious if they have one on display themselves.

I'm always surprised at the sheer volume of flags on display in the US but we just aren't that sort of culture.

I wouldn't say it's a mark of patriotism by having it on things, but I would think a conscious effort to remove it/ not put it on things to be a bit odd.

[768]

I don't have a flagpole up, but I do have a few photos up with union flags in.

[bitchstewie]

borcy said:

I wouldn't say it's a mark of patriotism by having it on things, but I would think a conscious effort to remove it/ not put it on things to be a bit odd.

Yeah see I can see that point of view but I can also see it as it isn't removing it from something it's just not putting it on it to start with.

Random example but if you're from a community that was impacted heavily by the Windrush scandal maybe you don't see the union jack quite the same as you or I might.

I think that's all the article is driving at that not everyone goes "ooh flags" in a positive way because of their own experience of the nation it represents - even if it's their own.

[AstonZagato]

Wombat3 said:

borcy said:

119 said:

bhstewie said:

AmyRichardson said:

Read that early this AM; I can feel for Starmer, he must want to shake these people whilst shouting "2019! 2019!! Is your memory that f*&£ing short!"

Pretty much this.

That said the last time I saw a union jack it was hung from a bridge over a dual carriageway with "Britain First" written all over it.

I think it's a reasonable article if you look past the headline and read and think about some of the points made.

It’s interesting in a way as there are many BAME people are British but may not neccessarily accept the flag.

Seems quite odd but I think it should be universally flown. The more people and different people that use it, the less it becomes associated with extreme views.

Exactly this.

A chance to reclaim the Cross of St George and the Union flag from extremists.

[carlo996]

bhstewie said:

If people see it as some sort of mark of how patriotic a politician or party is I'm curious if they have one on display themselves.

I'm always surprised at the sheer volume of flags on display in the US but we just aren't that sort of culture.

I think we are, but now everyone gets a prize it appears.

[biggbn]

carlo996 said:

bhstewie said:

If people see it as some sort of mark of how patriotic a politician or party is I'm curious if they have one on display themselves.

I'm always surprised at the sheer volume of flags on display in the US but we just aren't that sort of culture.

I think we are, but now everyone gets a prize it appears.

You'll have to explain that one to me Carlo?

[andy43]

Here we go again…

[biggbn]

andy43 said:

Here we go again…

Dear old Emily. No flags in her ivory tower.

[carlo996]

biggbn said:

You'll have to explain that one to me Carlo?

It means that any expression of nationalism is broadly viewed as a threat to inclusivity. The fuss made over it is ridiculous. When I lived in the US it’s largely accepted that you want to be there, similarly in Scandinavia, etc.

[biggbn]

carlo996 said:

biggbn said:

You'll have to explain that one to me Carlo?

It means that any expression of nationalism is broadly viewed as a threat to inclusivity. The fuss made over it is ridiculous. When I lived in the US it’s largely accepted that you want to be there, similarly in Scandinavia, etc.

OK, so that links to 'everyone gets a prize' how please? I'm still really unsure as to what that particular phrase meant?

For what little it's worth, I think it is entirely possible to live in a country, want to be there, without becoming a flag waving patriotic advert for said country...or did you suddenly become a Stars and Stripes waving, Star Spangled banner singing resident before swapping your allegiances for the Scandi country you inhabited and then back to good ol' John Bull. Or. Were you the same person just living in different places, enjoying life?

Edited by biggbn on Saturday 30th March 14:42

[119]

biggbn said:

OK, so that links to 'everyone gets a prize' how please? I'm still really unsure as to what that particular phrase meant?

For what little it's worth, I think it is entirely possible to live in a country, want to be there, without becoming a flag waving patriotic advert for said country...or did you suddenly become a Stars and Stripes waving, Star Spangled banner singing resident before swapping your allegiances for the Scandi country you inhabited and then back to good ol' John Bull. Or. Were you the same person just living in different places, enjoying life?

Edited by biggbn on Saturday 30th March 14:42

But that isn’t what the original article posted is about.

[biggbn]

119 said:

biggbn said:

OK, so that links to 'everyone gets a prize' how please? I'm still really unsure as to what that particular phrase meant?

For what little it's worth, I think it is entirely possible to live in a country, want to be there, without becoming a flag waving patriotic advert for said country...or did you suddenly become a Stars and Stripes waving, Star Spangled banner singing resident before swapping your allegiances for the Scandi country you inhabited and then back to good ol' John Bull. Or. Were you the same person just living in different places, enjoying life?

Edited by biggbn on Saturday 30th March 14:42

But that isn’t what the original article posted is about.

Sorry, I am asking Carlo what his 'everyone gets a prize' statement meant and his point about the assumptions made by other counties.

Edit, I can see the multi quote did not work. If you look up the page, you will see the 'conversation' this reply is part of. Thanks for drawing my attention to this