Israeli

[Grumfutock]

AW111 said:

We have been posting at each other tit-for-tat and disagreeing for half a dozen or more posts without insulting each other once : are we on the wrong thread?

I'm off to do something else non-constructive : bye for now.

Yea ps off!

[Grumfutock]

Countdown said:

Which Fatah have done. Along with lots of other preconditions imposed by Israel. Israel responded by saying Fatah doesn't speak for all the Palestinian people. So there was a Fatah/Hamas unity Govt. at which point Israel said they wouldn't negotiate with a terrorist organisation.

The cynical amongst us might suspect that Israel isn't really serious about negotiations and that, deep down, Netanyahu and Likud are conspiring to prevent any viable two state solution . I'm just surprised he's never admitted it.



Oh wait......

Are they being bombed? No. Why? Because they aren't firing big, hairy arsed rockets at Israel every 5 minutes! Fatah are enjoying their best relationship with Israel for over a decade. Why? Because they aren't blowing up buses in Israel! They have even been given weapons and ammunition by Israel, hardly the sort of thing enemies normally do is it?

Just for a second try to take a step back from your rabid anti Israel rhetoric and please try to see the whole picture. Yes Israel have made mistakes, some pretty bloody big ones, over the years. Yes they could of handled it better. But they are not the source of all evil and it is not their duty to provide all the concessions.

[AW111]

And so he falls into my cunning trap, the fool : I didn't go away at all!

[Scuffers]

AW111 said:

And so he falls into my cunning trap, the fool : I didn't go away at all!

[Grumfutock]

AW111 said:

And so he falls into my cunning trap, the fool : I didn't go away at all!

DOH!

[Alpinestars]

Scuffers said:

not at all.

you need to separate out the IDF from their political masters.

the IDF are doing what they are being asked to.

if you don't like this, then take it up with their political masters.

And do you apply those same rules to Hamas fighters and their political leaders, the Taliban and theirs, ISIS and theirs, the Nazis and theirs? All just going about doing their jobs.

If so, why are the Israeli leaders targeting Hamas fighters? Should they not be targeting their leaders only, and only taking it up with them?

Serious question, have you served in the IDF?

[league67]

Scuffers said:

league67 said:

So claim by UN that 70% of murdered Palestinians are civilians now became that 70% are Hamas.

you have claimed over 2000 civilians, back that statement up?

I never claimed over 2000 civilians. You made that up. Same as you made up that I'm 'die hard Hamas supporter'. Your position is so weak and indefensible, that you don't have a choice but to resort to lies.

Scuffers said:

you keep accusing me of being a horrible man, err... yea right.

Yet another lie, you just can't help yourself, can you? I don't "keep accusing you of being horrible man". 'Horrible' implies degree of choice. You are common, uneducated, victim and stupid. I don't mean above as an offence. Hope that helps.

[Kinky]

STOP!

A polite notice to please keep things civil.

If you can't be polite, then don't bother posting.

One and only warning.

[Scuffers]

league67 said:

Scuffers said:

league67 said:

So claim by UN that 70% of murdered Palestinians are civilians now became that 70% are Hamas.

you have claimed over 2000 civilians, back that statement up?

I never claimed over 2000 civilians. You made that up. Same as you made up that I'm 'die hard Hamas supporter'. Your position is so weak and indefensible, that you don't have a choice but to resort to lies.

No, silly me, it was your equally blinkered mate.

allnighter said:

Crimes against humanity was in reference to the reckless shelling of a densely populated area like Gaza where fore than 2000 civilians died so far.

league67 said:

Scuffers said:

you keep accusing me of being a horrible man, err... yea right.

Yet another lie, you just can't help yourself, can you? I don't "keep accusing you of being horrible man". 'Horrible' implies degree of choice. You are common, uneducated, victim and stupid. I don't mean above as an offence. Hope that helps.

do I have to trawl through countless previous pages to point out your own posts?

[Grumfutock]

Yes because Hamas and Taliban fighters join up for the career options don't they? The average IRA man joined up for the pension? Maybe the ISIS fighter join for the foreign travel? Hardly the same as joining the IDF is it? But yet again let's use a twisted and warped comparison to try and justify an argument. But then again nobody on earth can convince you that the IDF are a professional army and not a terrorist organisation so to you they probably are the same

[Slaav]

Kinky said:

STOP!

A polite notice to please keep things civil.

If you can't be polite, then don't bother posting.

One and only warning.

At last! Thank you

[enioldjoe]

Countdown said:

Grumfutock said:

Pretty sure they have stated the conditions for talks are exactly that. Stop missiles/bombing/murders. Oh and the tunnels.

Which Fatah have done. Along with lots of other preconditions imposed by Israel. Israel responded by saying Fatah doesn't speak for all the Palestinian people. So there was a Fatah/Hamas unity Govt. at which point Israel said they wouldn't negotiate with a terrorist organisation.

The cynical amongst us might suspect that Israel isn't really serious about negotiations and that, deep down, Netanyahu and Likud are conspiring to prevent any viable two state solution . I'm just surprised he's never admitted it.



Oh wait......

Why do you continue to bang this particularly one sided drum when both Fatah and the Palestinian people today don't really want a two state solution either ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Qmr3_IrVE&li...

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=10...

"These statements coming from Abbas Zaki are significant because he is a senior Palestinian official and a very close associate of Mahmoud Abbas. He was sent to Syria as Mahmoud Abbas' personal representative a few months ago and has spoken at public events representing Fatah."


Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pznF4HYhXA


A recent Poll:
Only 27.3% of those polled supported a two state solution. Two thirds want all of historic Palestine back under Arab control. Only 10.1% overall believe it should be made into a democratic state where everyone enjoys equal rights.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis...

[league67]

enioldjoe said:

Why do you continue to bang this particularly one sided drum when both Fatah and the Palestinian people today don't really want a two state solution either ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Qmr3_IrVE&li...

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=10...

"These statements coming from Abbas Zaki are significant because he is a senior Palestinian official and a very close associate of Mahmoud Abbas. He was sent to Syria as Mahmoud Abbas' personal representative a few months ago and has spoken at public events representing Fatah."


Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pznF4HYhXA


A recent Poll:
Only 27.3% of those polled supported a two state solution. Two thirds want all of historic Palestine back under Arab control. Only 10.1% overall believe it should be made into a democratic state where everyone enjoys equal rights.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis...

Do you even check your sources for bias?

Palwatch.org?
Itamar Marcus - Director
Mr. Marcus was appointed by the Israel Government [in 1999] to represent Israel in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority on Incitement.
Regularly gives analysis for FoxNews.

"Washington Institute" board of directors;

Richard S. Abramson

Chairman
Martin J. Gross

Chairman Emeritus
Howard P. Berkowitz

Founding President and Chairman Emerita
Barbi Weinberg

Senior Vice Presidents
Bernard Leventhal
Peter Lowy
James Schreiber

Hope that helps.

And UN is biased and unreliable source. You just couldn't make this up.

[Grumfutock]

enioldjoe said:

Why do you continue to bang this particularly one sided drum when both Fatah and the Palestinian people today don't really want a two state solution either ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Qmr3_IrVE&li...

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=10...

"These statements coming from Abbas Zaki are significant because he is a senior Palestinian official and a very close associate of Mahmoud Abbas. He was sent to Syria as Mahmoud Abbas' personal representative a few months ago and has spoken at public events representing Fatah."


Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pznF4HYhXA


A recent Poll:
Only 27.3% of those polled supported a two state solution. Two thirds want all of historic Palestine back under Arab control. Only 10.1% overall believe it should be made into a democratic state where everyone enjoys equal rights.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis...

See what you have done with your rational and well considered thought, your quotes, links and interviews! You have killed 300 pages of mature, grown up debating!

No hang on that doesn't sound right?

[Grumfutock]

league67 said:

Do you even check your sources for bias?

Palwatch.org?
Itamar Marcus - Director
Mr. Marcus was appointed by the Israel Government [in 1999] to represent Israel in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority on Incitement.
Regularly gives analysis for FoxNews.

"Washington Institute" board of directors;

Richard S. Abramson

Chairman
Martin J. Gross

Chairman Emeritus
Howard P. Berkowitz

Founding President and Chairman Emerita
Barbi Weinberg

Senior Vice Presidents
Bernard Leventhal
Peter Lowy
James Schreiber

Hope that helps.

And UN is biased and unreliable source. You just couldn't make this up.

Well done. So because they happen to have Jewish sounding names they are automatically exempt from being qualified or anything relative to say?

How about listing the researchers staff? Here are the top 3.

Robert Satloff. Executive Chair. D.Phil., St. Antony's College, University of Oxford; M.A., Harvard University; B.A., Duke University.

Patrick Clawson. Director of Research. Ph.D. in economics, New School for Social Research; B.A., Oberlin College

Michael Singh. Managing Director. M.B.A., Harvard University (Baker Scholar); B.A., Princeton University

You are right, you couldn't make this up....no wait, you just did!

Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 25th August 13:49

[avinalarf]

P

league67 said:

enioldjoe said:

Why do you continue to bang this particularly one sided drum when both Fatah and the Palestinian people today don't really want a two state solution either ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Qmr3_IrVE&li...

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=10...

"These statements coming from Abbas Zaki are significant because he is a senior Palestinian official and a very close associate of Mahmoud Abbas. He was sent to Syria as Mahmoud Abbas' personal representative a few months ago and has spoken at public events representing Fatah."


Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pznF4HYhXA


A recent Poll:
Only 27.3% of those polled supported a two state solution. Two thirds want all of historic Palestine back under Arab control. Only 10.1% overall believe it should be made into a democratic state where everyone enjoys equal rights.
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis...

Do you even check your sources for bias?

Palwatch.org?
Itamar Marcus - Director
Mr. Marcus was appointed by the Israel Government [in 1999] to represent Israel in negotiations with the Palestinian Authority on Incitement.
Regularly gives analysis for FoxNews.

"Washington Institute" board of directors;

Richard S. Abramson

Chairman
Martin J. Gross

Chairman Emeritus
Howard P. Berkowitz

Founding President and Chairman Emerita
Barbi Weinberg

Senior Vice Presidents
Bernard Leventhal
Peter Lowy
James Schreiber

Hope that helps.

And UN is biased and unreliable source. You just couldn't make this up.

Unlike yourself,league67.
Your sources are always completely unbiased .
It must be wonderful to live in your World,absolute certainty on who are the good guys.
Certainly the UN is not a source,nowadays, I would accept as being unbiased.
There are few organisations nowadays that do not have an agenda or bias of some sort.
Many posts supporting Israel have admitted mistakes have been made,over the past 60 years,and that the present government is taking a hard line in trying to defeat Hamas,and in so doing civilian Palestinians have been killed.
Any life lost is one too many.
Quoting sources and statistics will not end this tragic state of affairs.
Indeed it only entrenches opinions of those who try to cast blame, in preference to those who wish to bring about a credible peace.

Edited by avinalarf on Monday 25th August 14:23

[allnighter]

Alpinestars said:

Joffery666 said:

Holocaust survivors and their descendants accuse ISRAEL/ZIONISTS of â??genocideâ??

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

You'd have thought these people were better placed than most of us "debating" on this forum to make an assessment of what Israel is doing.

Many of the current supporters of Israel know better than someone who's lived through the holocaust and the current Israeli regime. They ignore the comments made by their leaders who created Israel who clearly knew they were displacing people from their land.

This survivor caused outrage when he compared Israel to the Nazi tactics. He says “It may be that Israel is not the most cruel country in the world … but one thing I know for sure is that Israel is the world champion in pretending to be civilised and cultured.”

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/politics/auschw...

So the supporters of Israel actually feel they know more than the holocaust survivors, the Israeli leadership when it was created and ex IDF soldiers breaking the silence?

Indeed, something in the article reminded me exactly of what's going with the Pro-Israel contributors who won't hesitate to tell lies on here just like Israel's propaganda machine to divert attention from the real issues associated with the conflict.

“Hajo knows that Israel has a long history of abusing the tragic history of the Holocaust in order to suppress legitimate criticism of its own crimes.

“Especially since Gaza, people are no longer taken in by their claim that anyone that criticises Israel is anti-Semitic.”

I was always the one to jump on anyone who displayed a slight tendency to anti-Semitism on here and I did that on at least three occasion in this thread IIRC, and obviously that was deliberately ignored by one poster on here who was allegedly "sure" that I will be happy so long as most Jews are dead.

If these are the kind of punching below the belt debating techniques that are being utilised on here by the likes of Mrr T to obfuscate any criticism directed at Israel, then this proves they are uneasy with the truth and more at ease in their imaginary comfort zone that Israel is the caring mother of all democracies, and the IDF are the little cupids of love and tenderness.

[Grumfutock]

And again with the misrepresentation.

Just because Herr Meyer survived 10 months in a concentration camp, a very harsh experience I am sure, doesn't make him an expert on Israel-Palestine. Indeed it would appear, upon a little research, that he isn't JUST a poor old survivor who has chosen to speak out is he? I cant even find anything to suggest that he has ever been to Israel or Palestine.

His appearance was organised by Mick Napier of the Scottish Palestine ­Solidarity Campaign chairman. A sort of aging hippie that campaigned against the Vietnam war and has just kept going.

From his Wiki page:

"In recent years, Meyer had been politically active, including as director of A Different Jewish Voice. He also wrote the book Het einde van het Jodendom (The End of Judaism) in 2003, which accuses Israel of abusing the Holocaust to justify crimes against the Palestinians. He was a member of the International Jewish Anti-Zionist Network. He participated in the 2011 "Never Again - For Anyone" tour. Meyer also claimed that Zionism predates fascism, that Zionists and fascists had a history of cooperation, and that Israel wants to create anti-Semitism in the world to encourage more Jews to migrate to Israel.[3] He had spoken in favor of Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions against Israel.[4] Hajo Meyer was a member of the Dutch GreenLeft."

Edited by Grumfutock on Monday 25th August 14:15

[avinalarf]

allnighter said:

ndeed, something in the article reminded me exactly of what's going with the Pro-Israel contributors who won't hesitate to tell lies on here just like Israel's propaganda machine to divert attention from the real issues associated with the conflict.

“Hajo knows that Israel has a long history of abusing the tragic history of the Holocaust in order to suppress legitimate criticism of its own crimes.

“Especially since Gaza, people are no longer taken in by their claim that anyone that criticises Israel is anti-Semitic.”

I was always the one to jump on anyone who displayed a slight tendency to anti-Semitism on here and I did that on at least three occasion in this thread IIRC, and obviously that was deliberately ignored by one poster on here who was allegedly "sure" that I will be happy so long as most Jews are dead.

If these are the kind of punching below the belt debating techniques that are being utilised on here by the likes of Mrr T to obfuscate any criticism directed at Israel, then this proves they are uneasy with the truth and more at ease in their imaginary comfort zone that Israel is the caring mother of all democracies, and the IDF are the little cupids of love and tenderness.

A rather patronising comment.
That you are not anti Semitic is neither here or there.
I can assure you anti semitism is alive and well and does not require your verification.
Just as prejudice against blacks is stll thriving,and therefore when they comment on their history of slavery,which was abolished many years before the holocaust,do you feel justified to dismiss that history in such a cavalier fashion ?

[Mrr T]

allnighter said:

Mrr T said:

allnighter said:

forced expulsion and ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians who ended up as refugees are historical facts and well documented and have nothing to do with genocide, how stupid can you get? Are you really that thick?

Edited by allnighter on Monday 25th August 09:30

I would have said "forced expulsion and ethnic cleaning" would be clearly defined as genocide by Articles 2 of Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

The more you post crap the more you look stupid.


Article II: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Now where did I accuse Israel of "Genocide" when I was talking about the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinian Arabs from their land who ended up as refugees and were never allowed back to their valleys and farms?

Now are you going to continue to make yourself stupid, or are you going to provide evidence of:

1. Me accusing Israel of "Genocide".

2. Me being happy that all or most Jews were dead.

Give us something with a bit of meat on, or hang your head in shame.

You do realise if you post information in support of your arguement it should actually support your point not mine.