Climate change - the POLITICAL debate.

[Jasandjules]

turbobloke said:

Presumably that junkscience was placed in this thread due to political motivation? Otherwise it could have been hammered in the science thread.

Well being realistic as there is no actual evidence of AGW, ALL pro-AGW "science" is political...................

[turbobloke]

Blib said:

Oh dear. News24 has just had a Met. Office weatherman on who intimated that Global Warming was to blame for the "meandering" Jet Stream.

Oh dear indeed. Job done for that person then, but still no credible objective evidence for the propaganda exists. It's simply a biased opinion and hardly an unexpected one.

What does influence the atlantic jet stream? As usual the problem with this thread is that a political statement needs sound science to kill it, but jumping across to the science thread would lose continuity. So with that in mind...it's posted here.

Some PHers may recall that in the past I've repeatedly stressed the importance of looking at solar forcing in terms of not just irradiance as the believers do, for obvious reasons (it leaves a gap that tax gas can be plugged into) but also in terms of eruptivity. Also that solar eruptivity has an element linked to sunspot type activity but also to non-spot phenomena such as coronal holes. Plenty of posts have mentioned this.

Have a read of this link, around the place Dr Corbyn gets a mention, this is the astrophysicist Piers Corbyn who was subjected to personal abuse in the Climategate emails:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/bori...

In the article at the point where coronal holes and CME type events are mentioned, Boris does admit he doesn't understand what's going on and seems to mix in some Svensmark with the Bucha. At least Boris is a politician so I can continue in this thread

To understand what type of events are actually involved, recall the peer reviewed solar eruptivity auroral oval forcing mechanism due to Bucha, as also posted on numerous occasions, extracts below:

Václav Bucha, Václav Bucha Jr Journal of Atmospheric and Solar-Terrestrial Physics 60, 2, 145-169 (1998)

Abstract
Common features in records of solar and geomagnetic activity as well as of climatic parameters can be observed. High correlation coefficients were found between geomagnetic activity, the sea level atmospheric pressure and the surface air temperature, occurring with a positive sign in the middle and southern Europe, in the south-eastern part of North America and in the western Atlantic but with a negative sign in the northern Atlantic and Canada. In the hypothesis proposed here for explaining Sun-weather relations, downward winds following the geomagnetic storm onset are generated in the polar cap of the thermosphere and penetrate to the stratosphere and troposphere, where the atmospheric response can be observed as a sudden increase of pressure and temperature. The subsidence effects along the northern margin of the subpolar high pressure areas (mainly the Siberian high) are accelerated and strong eastward winds participate in the intensification of the northern jet stream and in the successive zonalization of flow in mid-latitudes. It is shown that at a time of low geomagnetic activity planetary waves with large amplitudes prevail in the northern hemisphere due to the orographic effect of the Rocky Mountains and Greenland. On the other hand, at a time of high geomagnetic activity, an intensification of the winds can be observed not only in the thermosphere but also in the troposphere. A strong northern jet stream participates in the intensification of the westerly zonal flow and in the increase of temperature successively in the eastern part of North America, in Europe and northern Asia. These relations are clearly detectable not only in monthly averages of the pressure and temperature distribution but also in the daily variations of atmospheric circulation.


NB This is science not arm waving junk and it demonstrates a solar impact on jet stream behaviour.


As believerville appears to be touting the next natural El Nino (ENSO = El Nino southern oscillation) in advance as something related to tax gas, not that there is any credible reasoning as to how, remember this other piece of peer-reviewed Bucha science in the literature.


V. Bucha Advances in Space Research 6, 10, 77-82 (1986)
Abstract
In order to prove that meridional flow changes into zonal flow as a result of auroral electrons and bremsstrahlung leading to an increase in temperature and pressure even in the troposphere, the relations between corpuscular (geomagnetic) activity and atmospheric pressure were statistically investigated in the northern hemisphere at the 500 hPa level. Correlation coefficients for daily, monthly and yearly values have confirmed that fluctuations in climate and weather including zonal and meridional circulations, blocking, invasions of arctic air and southern oscillation can be accounted for by the processes in the auroral oval.


IPCC types have only had 26 years to spot this and include it as a means of pushing carbon dioxide out of the picture into the long grass where it belongs, long grass needs carbon dioxide.

[turbobloke]

Jasandjules said:

turbobloke said:

Presumably that junkscience was placed in this thread due to political motivation? Otherwise it could have been hammered in the science thread.

Well being realistic as there is no actual evidence of AGW, ALL pro-AGW "science" is political...................

Fair point.

The thing is, if a mod deletes or moves a reply, it will leave the original politicised claptrap unanswered, so hopefully the inevitable mix of science and politics is acceptable here - as opposed to a purely scientific contribution which is understood as being at home in the other thread.

[The Don of Croy]

Even if, as we hope, the climaggedon doomongers have to throttle back on the AGW ambit, I don't expect for one second they're going to disappear.

So what do they have in the armoury? Ice age cometh?

Or will the 'issue' move on to the next big worry - pandemics?

Is there a natural progression these A-holes will likely follow to the next big research well?

[Andy Zarse]

turbobloke said:

Blib said:

Oh dear. News24 has just had a Met. Office weatherman on who intimated that Global Warming was to blame for the "meandering" Jet Stream.

Oh dear indeed. Job done for that person then, but still no credible objective evidence for the propaganda exists. It's simply a biased opinion and hardly an unexpected one...

Some PHers may recall that in the past I've repeatedly stressed the importance of looking at solar forcing in terms of not just irradiance as the believers do, for obvious reasons (it leaves a gap that tax gas can be plugged into) but also in terms of eruptivity. Also that solar eruptivity has an element linked to sunspot type activity but also to non-spot phenomena such as coronal holes. Plenty of posts have mentioned this...

I don't believe you, I reckon the Jetstream is not only getting whacked off its tits on cheap supermarket booze, it is also affected by the current inordinately high level of prejudons* being emitted by the John Terry racism circus.






The Prejudometer is an anti-racist instrument that supplies readings in prejudons, the "internationally recognised scientific unit of racial prejudice", when pointed at a suspected racist. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9305636/I...

[turbobloke]

Andy Zarse said:

turbobloke said:

Blib said:

Oh dear. News24 has just had a Met. Office weatherman on who intimated that Global Warming was to blame for the "meandering" Jet Stream.

Oh dear indeed. Job done for that person then, but still no credible objective evidence for the propaganda exists. It's simply a biased opinion and hardly an unexpected one...

Some PHers may recall that in the past I've repeatedly stressed the importance of looking at solar forcing in terms of not just irradiance as the believers do, for obvious reasons (it leaves a gap that tax gas can be plugged into) but also in terms of eruptivity. Also that solar eruptivity has an element linked to sunspot type activity but also to non-spot phenomena such as coronal holes. Plenty of posts have mentioned this...

I don't believe you, I reckon the Jetstream not only is getting whacked off it's tits on cheap supermarket booze, it is also affected by the current inordinately high level of prejudons* being emitted by the John Terry Racism circus.

A government appointed funding review minion has not said:

Mr A Zarse, your grant application has been successful. Please collect $$$ at your convenience, just remember where the money came from when you publish your conclusions.

[LongQ]

The Don of Croy said:

Even if, as we hope, the climaggedon doomongers have to throttle back on the AGW ambit, I don't expect for one second they're going to disappear.

So what do they have in the armoury? Ice age cometh?

Or will the 'issue' move on to the next big worry - pandemics?

Is there a natural progression these A-holes will likely follow to the next big research well?

My guess will be ramping up the overpopulation thing. It's been warmed up a bit recently, is a natural follow on to keep AGW near the table and use what has adhered to that to date. The Attenboroughs of the world have already signed up to what used to be call the Optimum Population Trust although iirc it recently changed shape a little and got a new name.

So long as Governments can find ways of funding 'non-governmental' organisations of many shapes and sizes to lobby their paymasters to do things 'on behalf of the population and future generations' some sort of scare or a hundred will be in active circulation. CUt that funding unbilical and we might, just possibly, start to get some more rational thinking from those who seek power and influence.

[Andy Zarse]

turbobloke]A government appointed funding review minion has not said:

Mr A Zarse, your grant application has been successful. Please collect $$$ at your convenience, just remember where the money came from when you publish your conclusions.

As Peter Simple's Dr E J Multimer (angry young astronomer and sex-pest at Stretchford University) used to demand; "Ample government funding!"

[kerplunk]

turbobloke said:

The so-called desaturation myth has been dealt with so many times on here. And yes referring to that junkscience repository takes some nerve.

Assume that the absorption near ground level isn't saturated. Assume that 99 point x percent of CO2 absorption band radiation is absorbed within y metres of the ground emission source where y will be a few tens at most. Double the carbon dioxide level. The same level of absorption as before now takes place in half the distance i.e. y/2 metres, a shorter distance of a few metres is not an automatic permanent bulk temperature increase.

The same principle applies to absorption high in the troposphere and/or low in the stratosphere using narrower bands where water and tax gas overlap less. Because the atmospheric pressure is lower the distances will be greater but doubling carbon dioxide levels still means that the same absorption occurs in half the distance. And a shorter distance isn't (etc).

Presumably that junkscience was placed in this thread due to political motivation? Otherwise it could have been hammered in the science thread.

Does the Real Climate article differ from in some way from the mainstream theory of MMGW, as described in scientific reports and text-books etc?

As for your contrary assertions we've been over this before - they have little value to me as a layman as I don't understand the physics well enough. All I know is your assertions don't have much in the way of peer support.

[kerplunk]

Blib said:

Oh dear. News24 has just had a Met. Office weatherman on who intimated that Global Warming was to blame for the "meandering" Jet Stream.

If it's the one I saw I thought he was appropriately circumspect about it when asked.

But I imagine you wouldn't be happy unless he gave a flat NO to the question

Edited by kerplunk on Tuesday 17th July 19:11

Edited by kerplunk on Tuesday 17th July 19:42

[turbobloke]

Very cold winters were supposedly manmadeup global warming in 2009/10/11. For example this

Warm wet winters and dry hot summers were supposedly due to manmadeup global warming or climate change or numberwang or whatever name the alarmists were using at the time. An example is this

It was all down to tax gas when we were in drought conditions a couple of months ago as per this

When did it change to cold wet summers and warm dry winters? The cold wet summers as per this

As always, if there is weather anywhere, evil humans are responsible and it's not weather it's manmadeup warming/climate change/climate chaos, which is signalled by extreme bks as everything that happens is serially attributed to mankind by one useful idiot after another.

[Blib]

kerplunk said:

Blib said:

Oh dear. News24 has just had a Met. Office weatherman on who intimated that Global Warming was to blame for the "meandering" Jet Stream.

If it's the one I saw I thought he was appropriately circumspect about it when asked.

But I imagine you wouldn't be happy unless he gave a flat NO to the question

Edited by kerplunk on Tuesday 17th July 19:11

Edited by kerplunk on Tuesday 17th July 19:42

Has the Jet Stream moved South any time in the past? Anytime before measurable emissions from Mankind?

Pathetic editing BTW.

[V88Dicky]

turbobloke said:

Very cold winters were supposedly manmadeup global warming in 2009/10/11. For example this

Warm wet winters and dry hot summers were supposedly due to manmadeup global warming or climate change or numberwang or whatever name the alarmists were using at the time. An example is this

It was all down to tax gas when we were in drought conditions a couple of months ago as per this

When did it change to cold wet summers and warm dry winters? The cold wet summers as per this

As always, if there is weather anywhere, evil humans are responsible and it's not weather it's manmadeup warming/climate change/climate chaos, which is signalled by extreme bks as everything that happens is serially attributed to mankind by one useful idiot after another.

Marvellous!

Only when you link all this blame game together do you see it is utter cack.

[kerplunk]

Blib said:

Has the Jet Stream moved South any time in the past? Anytime before measurable emissions from Mankind?

Pathetic editing BTW.

I thought I'd fixed it already

Probably not much known about the history of the jet stream - it was only discovered in the 40s by WWII bombers I believe. There's the weather record though of course.

[kerplunk]

Guam said:

Really Peer Review memes now?
Did I stumble into the Tardis and go back to 2007?

No peers as in other people in the field. If you recall I've asked for notable names in the past - none came. Even luminaries like Lord Monkton disagree with turbobloke

Edited by kerplunk on Tuesday 17th July 21:30

[turbobloke]

Guam said:

kerplunk said:

No peers as in other people in the field. If you recall I've asked for notable names in the past - none came. Even luminaries like Lord Monkton disagree with turbobloke

The only person I remember asking for notable names was he who we never mention from the "other place"

But it cant be that as this is the politics thread right?

Right

As it happens kerplunk got that reasoning by assertion wrong. I disagree with the junkscience of IPCC.

The thing to note is the capacity to disagree with a proposition from a position of knowledge and understanding rather than politics or religion. Viscount Monckton is a classicist but one with more awareness of climate science than any alarmist on here or anywhere else.

If there is any credible objective data and sound science backing any position I'll back it too, unless and until valid and reliable new data and/or convincing new ideas emerge. I don't need people to tell me what's what, unlike some on here who still manage olympic levels of brassneck by relying on the views of those who say comforting things in line with a belief system rather than accurate things in keeping with the data.

If and when carbon dioxide levels have reached a point where received wisdom says that a particular increase in temperature should have happened and it's nowhere to be seen, we can revisit this. So far the repeatedly downward-adjusted claimed mean global troposphere temperature rises from junkscience gigo models has failed to appear. Does that put IPCC or Monckton in the frame or some other position maybe?

[dickymint]

Not sure if the right thread so I'll put it here.

"Free access to British scientific research within two years

Radical shakeup of academic publishing will allow papers to be put online and be accessed by universities, firms and individuals."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/jul/15/free...


Any thoughts?

[Jasandjules]

dickymint said:

Any thoughts?

Well they claim they can't even find the data they use for their lying reports...... I can't see a whole lot of change...

[turbobloke]

As long as Amnesty International can verify that the data wasn't tortured until it confessed.

[hidetheelephants]

Andy Zarse said:

prejudons

Sounds like something you'd buy at the deli counter in Waitrose.