Germanwings A320 crashed in France :(
Discussion
cardigankid said:
Even Lufthansa/German Wings now accept that this individual should not have been flying, 'slipped through the safety net' is their expression. This appears to be a situation of such gross negligence that liability to pay compensation is a near certainty.
All I am saying, and I am surprised that it is controversial, is that no one who has shown signs of mental instability, whether 'cured' or not should be allowed to work in a job like an airline pilot. I believe that airlines like the RAF should be able to drop people from pilots courses without stated reason or liability. I always thought that airlines had a seriously rigorous training process which eliminated the psychologically weak. If that is no longer the case, I'll be taking the train in future.
As you clearly don't know much about mental illness, it's not just something you will always have or show signs of when you join an airline. All I am saying, and I am surprised that it is controversial, is that no one who has shown signs of mental instability, whether 'cured' or not should be allowed to work in a job like an airline pilot. I believe that airlines like the RAF should be able to drop people from pilots courses without stated reason or liability. I always thought that airlines had a seriously rigorous training process which eliminated the psychologically weak. If that is no longer the case, I'll be taking the train in future.
You might suffer from it during your career though.
As you want people dropped from the airline. They are unlikely to admit they are suffering or get help.
Your fantastic plan results in more people with mental illness flying aircraft. That's not really a good outcome is it?
Prosecutors, getting their knickers in a rwist, who would have thought it but who are they going to prosecute? The perpertrator died in the crash, he deliberately lied to his employer in a convincing way and beat all the security checks the airline is required to have.
Is anyone else having a dilbert moment...
Is anyone else having a dilbert moment...
User33678888 said:
So was Anders Breivik. Didn't stop him being a mass murderer.
Mental illness, isn't just one condition, there's all kinds of treatable conditions that come under the umbrella of mental illness. What mental illness was Breivik suffering from, he ended up in prison not a hospital.
Calling the F/O a murderer and closing the case doesn't really reduce the likelyhood of it happening again.
Well how would you stop it happening again?
People aren't machines and you don't get a lifetime guarantee of normal operation when a child is born, you can put in place ways of doing things, etc but nothing is ever a 100% certainty because there is a fallible person or persons involved.
Unfortunately these terrible events do happen but I cannot think how you could stop it ever happening again.
People aren't machines and you don't get a lifetime guarantee of normal operation when a child is born, you can put in place ways of doing things, etc but nothing is ever a 100% certainty because there is a fallible person or persons involved.
Unfortunately these terrible events do happen but I cannot think how you could stop it ever happening again.
gottans said:
Well how would you stop it happening again?
People aren't machines and you don't get a lifetime guarantee of normal operation when a child is born, you can put in place ways of doing things, etc but nothing is ever a 100% certainty because there is a fallible person or persons involved.
Unfortunately these terrible events do happen but I cannot think how you could stop it ever happening again.
I never said you could stop it but you could reduce it by having better monitoring of mental health amongst pilots. People aren't machines and you don't get a lifetime guarantee of normal operation when a child is born, you can put in place ways of doing things, etc but nothing is ever a 100% certainty because there is a fallible person or persons involved.
Unfortunately these terrible events do happen but I cannot think how you could stop it ever happening again.
Perhaps also some more study into the events where pilots have deliberately crashed aircraft. Are there similarities? Why do pilots often do it when the other person is out of the flight deck? Is it just because there will be less resistance or are people more likely to do it if alone for some other psychological reason?
How much of a factor is the environment they work in? Are the annual medical examinations and training/checking processes adequate? What about how they are recruiting pilots? Perhaps the management have helped create an atmosphere where people are more likely to crack.
There's lots I would look at if I was Lufthansa or german wings management.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: As you are a pilot, can I ask a couple of questions as it's not something I'd have any idea about.
If you felt you had a mental health issue would you feel you could raise it with your employer and ask for help?
What steps does your employer currently take that might catch a potential issue in the early stages if you did keep quiet?
If I thought I was suffering from stress or fatigue or depression, I would contact them and they would take me off work untill I felt better. They would offer help as they want their employees fit and able to work again. I imagine I would be well looked after. If you felt you had a mental health issue would you feel you could raise it with your employer and ask for help?
What steps does your employer currently take that might catch a potential issue in the early stages if you did keep quiet?
If I kept quiet, I doubt it would be brought to anyone's attention, unless it resulted in poor performance or a discipline issue.
There's no ongoing psychological monitoring if that's what you're asking.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Thanks, wasn't so much asking if there was specific psychological screening, just curious if it's given any prominence as part of the (presumably regular) medicals vs. relying on essentially honesty or a concerned colleague.
No, it's not part of the yearly medicals. Plenty of pilots do get time off for stress or depression though. It's quite an open environment, having time off wouldn't limit your career or have other repercussions.
Hopefully this event won't reduce pilot's willingness to put their hand up.
I know in other airlines the employer isnt as understanding or helpful as mine is though and more pressure is put on the employee to come to work when unfit.
My objection is to the story and how it monetises people in what are horrific circumstances. There have been other incidents like this but this is the first time I have seem a story in the media about how much a dead person is is effectively worth.
I think it is callous, cold and plums new depths.
I think it is callous, cold and plums new depths.
cardigankid said:
Not quite.
Anyone mentally unstable at any time should be excluded from responsible jobs.
Those known to be a threat to others safety, having expressed a desire to commit some diabolical act, as this pathetic inadequate little prat did, should be locked up.
It's not actually terribly difficult. There were people who knew that inconsequential punk planned something like this yet they did nothing. They are not terribly hard to identify. I've. Met them. I was at primary school with a murderer. We all knew he was subnormal. All it takes is the quality of decision to deal with them. These incidents happen because the inadequate are tolerated to an unprecedented degree.
Mental illness is not the same as physical illness. It is weakness and instability.
Your plan just means people won't admit to suffering from mental illness and will go to work when they should not. You won't be able to identify them. Anyone mentally unstable at any time should be excluded from responsible jobs.
Those known to be a threat to others safety, having expressed a desire to commit some diabolical act, as this pathetic inadequate little prat did, should be locked up.
It's not actually terribly difficult. There were people who knew that inconsequential punk planned something like this yet they did nothing. They are not terribly hard to identify. I've. Met them. I was at primary school with a murderer. We all knew he was subnormal. All it takes is the quality of decision to deal with them. These incidents happen because the inadequate are tolerated to an unprecedented degree.
Mental illness is not the same as physical illness. It is weakness and instability.
This has been a really interesting thread but your posts stand out as being a bit hysterical and ignorant. Thankfully nobody will take them seriously.
Dr Jekyll said:
That makes the suicide relatively explicable, but it's the taking of all the passengers with him that is bizarre.
He's now in charge. He's retaken control of his life and has power over his employer, his career and all the passengers. Everyone is going to remember his name. Richie200 said:
Fully understand; the point I was trying to make was that only limited info is passed onto the Flight medical doctor. I have a very good friend who is a Captain and am fairly certain that if his medical condition was fully declared he probably wouldn't be flying today (he definitely is though as I have just flown with him PIC this morning).
I'm trying to think of medical conditions which would result in a pilot losing his medical but actually being fine to fly with if he doesn't admit to it. You're suggesting the CAA think he's unfit to fly but you know he's fine and it's OK he's lying about it.
I think your mate might be doing something a bit dodgy TBH.
NicD said:
You are probably used to being correct (in your own mind perhaps) but please point to anything incoherent I have posted?
TBF I have no idea what you're banging on about either.What's the actual point you're trying to make with regards to the thread.
This squabbling is pointless.
NicD said:
In a nutshell, medical professionals treating persons with conditions that give them the potential to harm themselves or others should be obliged to report this to a central authority. This requires proportionality (and the central reporting system), of course.
That sounds a bit vague, which conditions do you mean? If someone knows they will end up in this central reporting system, won't they just not seek treatment and make the whole problem worse? If you're looking at catching pilots with issues like our friend intent on murder suicide, would it not be better to include some kind of mental MOT as part of their annual medical. If they come off flying and then return due to successful treatment of mental illness you could always give them more regular medicals. As happens now with certain conditions.
Bluebarge said:
brenflys777 said:
The need to be seen to do something shouldn't force change.
Agreed. What should force change is the emergence of a new risk. Given that this is the second case of pilot suicide/passenger murder this year (plus possibly the MH370 crash plus possibly previous incidents as the Egyptair crash in 1999)then steps need to be taken to deal with this new risk. Having a minimum of 2 crew in the cockpit would seem a sensible way of dealing with that.Do you think a stewardess (or anyone else) in the flight deck can stop someone who is sitting in front of all the flight deck controls from making the aircraft crash? Having another pilot in his/seat wouldn't stop it. It would take seconds for a pilot to make the aircraft unable to fly. Once someone intent on murder suicide is sitting by the controls it's far too late.
These new rules are there simply to make passengers feel more comfortable. For that reason alone I'd support them but they won't make it any more difficult for any other pilot to do the same as this bloke did.
woodypup59 said:
Having had no answer before, I have to ask again :-
Why can't the cabin crew radio to ATC in an emergency ?
Because they don't have a VHF or HF radio in the cabin. Why can't the cabin crew radio to ATC in an emergency ?
They could use their mobiles or a sat phone (if fitted) and they had reception and numbers of every ATC centre and they knew which one they were flying near to.
Bluebarge said:
el stovey said:
How do these new rules stop or even reduce pilot murder-suicide?
Do you think a stewardess (or anyone else) in the flight deck can stop someone who is sitting in front of all the flight deck controls from making the aircraft crash? Having another pilot in his/seat wouldn't stop it. It would take seconds for a pilot to make the aircraft unable to fly. Once someone intent on murder suicide is sitting by the controls it's far too late.
These new rules are there simply to make passengers feel more comfortable. For that reason alone I'd support them but they won't make it any more difficult for any other pilot to do the same as this bloke did.
They could presumably prevent the suicidal flight crew from preventing the other pilot returning to the cabin.Do you think a stewardess (or anyone else) in the flight deck can stop someone who is sitting in front of all the flight deck controls from making the aircraft crash? Having another pilot in his/seat wouldn't stop it. It would take seconds for a pilot to make the aircraft unable to fly. Once someone intent on murder suicide is sitting by the controls it's far too late.
These new rules are there simply to make passengers feel more comfortable. For that reason alone I'd support them but they won't make it any more difficult for any other pilot to do the same as this bloke did.
Not a complete answer for sure, but inertia is not an option, so it will have to do until there is time to design an alternative/additional response.
What's the other pilot going to do? The suicidal guy has all the controls right there in front of him/her? He just starts switching stuff and turning things off and doing some aerobatics. The other pilot couldn't stop it even if they were sitting on his knee.
Our friend in German Wings decided to take a while to reach the mountain but he would have changed his plan and done it in seconds had the other pilot opened the door.
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