Supermarkets 'creating jobs' WTF?

[oyster]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

That's right, customers are forced at gunpoint to shop in supermarkets instead of the smaller stores you so love.

And as to service. I work 8 to 6 most days which means I may get home at 7pm or so. If the butchers truly offered great service, wouldn't they still be open to SERVE people like me?

[Ozzie Osmond]

oyster said:

That's right, customers are forced at gunpoint to shop in supermarkets instead of the smaller stores you so love.

And as to service, I get home at 7pm or so. If the butchers truly offered great service, wouldn't they still be open to SERVE people like me?

Absolutely right. You wonder what part of the universe is occupied by the "save the small shops" brigade. Together with 99% of the population I generally favour,

• 24 hour opening
• convenient parking
• one-stop-shop
• excellent quality control
• competitive prices

[grantone]

singlecoil said:

...My guess is that those 5,000 jobs are going to be created at the expense other jobs in the areas concerned, when the existing retail outlets close as a result of the new competiton. I'm not in any way saying such competition is a bad thing, I'm just calling bullst on the job creation claim.

Absolutely agree, the net effect is always very close to zero, there are only 3 ways I can think of to increase net employment as a nominal number in a country...

1. Replacing goods and services currently provided by people outside your own country (applies to both home and export markets)
2. Increasing your own population (increases the nominal number, but has an ever lower proportional effect as more and more of the needs are met with existing infrastructure)
3. Borrowing external to the country, spending it on employing people and then defaulting on the loan (even a soft default, like paying back in a devalued currency)

Everything else I can think of just results in a netting effect further down the chain, e.g.

Swapping profits for people means lower employment for the people who were going to provide the goods and services that the lost profit was going to be spent on.

That's why I think trade balance is important unless you intend to default on external obligations.

[crankedup]

Big business talking to Government, dress up employment numbers and put a positive spin on progress. Its an old ploy that's been used by all Governments as and when required. I agree with other posters, its jobs being moved across from the tiddlers to big guns.

[fido]

crankedup said:

Big business talking to Government, dress up employment numbers and put a positive spin on progress. Its an old ploy that's been used by all Governments as and when required. I agree with other posters, its jobs being moved across from the tiddlers to big guns.

So does MrCrankedUp do all his shopping in boutiques on a picturesque high street, obtain his free-range organic food directly from the Farmers Market ...
or Tesco and ASDA?

I thought so.

[Dimski]

singlecoil said:

Well, because the rates are a tax, and the tax is based on the general idea that if people can afford the high rent, then they can afford to pay tax on it. Same idea as income tax.

I can well understand the LLs' point of view, they don't see why they should reduce the rent on properties they have paid a lot of money for, and as long as they can get it, why not ask a high rent? The trouble comes when they can't get it, and rather than reduce the rent, they will leave the properties empty.

They'll get stung on that, in Wales (I've no idea about England) after 3 months the landlord has to pay the business rates, giving them a pretty big incentive to let.

On business rates, they are based on rent but they are another area where the supermarkets have an advantage. Most of them are in areas designated as out of town centers, which attract lower rates per sq m than town center properties, and that is before we get to councils giving extra incentives like rate holidays, or rate free car parks... etc.

It is difficult for a council to reject a supermarket application, if the developers appeal (and you can be certain they will) it will end up above the council (in my local town's case the Welsh Assembly) and one bloke will decide, based on planning law. Planning law has just been relaxed, and even before it was more on the side of developers than NIMBYs.

My town has superb local stores with fantastic local produce. We've got the Welsh butcher of the year 2011 (The lamb... drool...) 2 small costcutter/spar stores, locally owned with local produce, a local deli, a spanish deli and boutique fashion shops. All in a town that has just 2,000 homes. What allowed it to flourish was no rates (the place was a wreck 20 years ago, and then they had rate relief due to foot and mouth) and no supermarket. The low rates allowed businesses to take off, and 20 years later it was listed for a google shopping street award (2010 or '11 I think?). However, as the overheads were low, the landlords started to increase the rent, and now with the 2008 rateable value the town is struggling. The final straw is on the horizon, a developer has applied for planning permission for a Co-Op, which with the high percentage of food retail would kill off so many of the high street stores it would fk one of the only Welsh town success stories in the past 30 years. The application was rejected, and we're now in the position I mentioned above.

It doesn't feel right that when the majority of the town's population don't want it, the businesses don't want it, the town council don't want it, the developers OWN retail impact assesment (which was full of figures already disproved) show a fair portion of trade that would be lost from the town's businesses, and the county council rejected it, that the developers can just appeal to the WAG get all their costs back from the county council and build it anyway.

[AJS-]

DonkeyApple said:

Although I would say that they are not creating 5000 new jobs but retitleing an existing role so that the next batch of standard turnover replacement staff appear to filling new positions rather than replacing an old one.

So, Gladis the Executive Till Operator leaves as she is having a baby and Ethel joins the firm as a Customer Processing Speciallist but strangely is sitting at Gladis' till doing a remarkably identical roll. Yet the firm can announce that it has stream lined and made more efficient the Executive Till Operater role which aggressively expanding the essential Customer Processing Specialist team to cope with customer needs.

It sounds like they'll be replacing their Delivery Drivers with Logistics Solutions Operatives, and Warehouse Staff with Storage Facilitation Officers while they're at it too Maybe they've been speaking to a management consultancy?

[anonymous-user]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Absolutely right. You wonder what part of the universe is occupied by the "save the small shops" brigade. Together with 99% of the population I generally favour,

• 24 hour opening
• convenient parking
• one-stop-shop
• excellent quality control
• competitive prices

Consistency of quality is nice but its just a shame that the quality level is consistently low!
Do you value service? Competitive prices maybe but at whose expense? By squeezing suppliers with no mercy or by offering bread that has more air bubbles than dough and minced beef that has more gristle than beef? My wifey buys her fruit and veg from the market at the weekend and the quality matches the supermarket and is actually CHEAPER! But people like you don't look further than the end of your nose and accept whatever the supermarkets say about 'value'.

[anonymous-user]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Absolutely right. You wonder what part of the universe is occupied by the "save the small shops" brigade. Together with 99% of the population I generally favour,

• 24 hour opening
• convenient parking
• one-stop-shop
• excellent quality control
• competitive prices

Consistency of quality is nice but its just a shame that the quality level is consistently low!
Do you value service? Competitive prices maybe but at whose expense? By squeezing suppliers with no mercy or by offering bread that has more air bubbles than dough and minced beef that has more gristle than beef? My wifey buys her fruit and veg from the market at the weekend and the quality matches the supermarket and is actually CHEAPER! But people like you don't look further than the end of your nose and accept whatever the supermarkets say about 'value'.

[Digga]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

^This.

We still buy most of out meat from the local butcher. A while back, when **** supermarket delivered our odds 'n' sods shop, they mistakently left us with some of their "Finest" (that should really read 'finest') pork sausages.

We 'phoned to inform them of the error and they told us to keep the goods, which we did. However, they were vile compared to our locally sourced ones; salty, flavourless, and packed-out with disctincly un-meaty filler of some description.

[voyds9]

eccles said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Whilst I agree with you about the lack of choice on the high street regarding record shops, I'd say the supermarkets aren't to blame. Internet shopping and technology like MP3's were in their infancy 10 years ago and are the likely candidates for killing off the record shops.
If anything, supermarkets have shown what a rip off the traditional music shops were, they'd still be charging £10 or £12 for a CD, where your average supermarket sells the same product for £7 or £8 (much the same goes for bookshops).

The reason 'specialist' shops general are more expensive is due to range of products and product knowledge.

Yes you can walk into Adsa and pock up their featured artist (Matt Cardle at the moment) for £6.97, if you want Now 80 that's £11.97, if you want Bon Jovi Slippery when wet (one of the most iconic albums of my time) you are out of luck it's not stock or even available to order.

That is where supermarkets fail, they tell you what you should want, before long we will all be clones, wearing the same clothes, using the same phone, listening to the same music whilst eating the same food.

[AJS-]

No argument from me on the lousy quality of supermarkets, and the prices aren't so great either. The thing is, when I worked in London and lived in an area better stocked than many with decent independent retailers, I still ended up using the supermarket a lot for many of the reasons Ozzie sites.

The butcher was great but he closed at 6:00 meaning unless I escaped from work very early I would have to do all my meat shopping on Saturday. The fruit and veg stalls were very hit and miss, quite often they wouldn't have what you wanted. Other times they would have it but it would be so manky and withered that you wouldn't want it.

Parking was nearly impossible, and if there was a space it would cost £1 even if I only went in for 5 minutes, and if I did it all in one go at the weekend then I would be walking around 5 different shops with bags of vegetables getting in the way everywhere.

For all that I did use them when I could, but the reality is that for someone working full time supermarkets are just massively more convenient, and convenience counts for a lot.


Incidentally, here in Thailand I don't use supermarkets as much. People come by my house on mobile vegetable racks like this
and my girlfriend goes off to the market to get fresh stuff. But she doesn't work full time.

Cheap labour and stay at home wives are the only way to enjoy fresh produce.

[eccles]

voyds9 said:

eccles said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Whilst I agree with you about the lack of choice on the high street regarding record shops, I'd say the supermarkets aren't to blame. Internet shopping and technology like MP3's were in their infancy 10 years ago and are the likely candidates for killing off the record shops.
If anything, supermarkets have shown what a rip off the traditional music shops were, they'd still be charging £10 or £12 for a CD, where your average supermarket sells the same product for £7 or £8 (much the same goes for bookshops).

The reason 'specialist' shops general are more expensive is due to range of products and product knowledge.

Yes you can walk into Adsa and pock up their featured artist (Matt Cardle at the moment) for £6.97, if you want Now 80 that's £11.97, if you want Bon Jovi Slippery when wet (one of the most iconic albums of my time) you are out of luck it's not stock or even available to order.

That is where supermarkets fail, they tell you what you should want, before long we will all be clones, wearing the same clothes, using the same phone, listening to the same music whilst eating the same food.

You seem to misunderstand my argument. I'm saying the supermarkets aren't to blame for the closure of indie record shops, it's more to do with the explosion of internet shopping and technology like mp3's.

I do disagree with you over the pricing matter. Before supermarkets all record shops were expensive, whether it was an indie with knowledgeable staff or a chain like Virgin/HMV/Ourprice etc. Since the supermarkets have started selling CD's the high street stores have to cut their prices to stay competitive.
Much the same argument goes for paperbacks, my local bookshop still want to charge me £7.99 for a paperback that the supermarket sells for £3.73, however I understand that if I want a specialist or non mainstream book I'll more than likely have to pay the cover price for it.

[Sticks.]

Ozzie Osmond said:

Absolutely right. You wonder what part of the universe is occupied by the "save the small shops" brigade.

The rural part, who factor in fuel costs to drive to a decent sized supermarket. I order online for the regular stuff, and use local shops for items I want to see and between main shopping.

It's been an eye opener, realising how expensive some things can be in supermarkets and how much better quality some things can be locally. Some being the key word.

Imho.

[Dimski]

Sticks. said:

The rural part, who factor in fuel costs to drive to a decent sized supermarket. I order online for the regular stuff, and use local shops for items I want to see and between main shopping.

It's been an eye opener, realising how expensive some things can be in supermarkets and how much better quality some things can be locally. Some being the key word.

Imho.

Very much agree.

I've been often disappointed by the fruit from local shops, but blown away by the meat.

The price is a good point. When I shop locally, I spend very little. I only buy what I need. When I stick to it, I save money. The supermarkets can be more expensive than people realise.

[F i F]

eccles said:

Much the same argument goes for paperbacks, my local bookshop still want to charge me £7.99 for a paperback that the supermarket sells for £3.73, however I understand that if I want a specialist or non mainstream book I'll more than likely have to pay the cover price for it.

Actually the beginning of the end was the collapse of the Net Book Agreement.

Whilst this wiki article (sorry) is disputed I feel it's a reasonable analysis.

In this situation part of the blame must lie with the large bookseller chains, who saw an opportunity to gain market share, however have had their asses bitten by discount retailers, mainly supermarkets, who sell a limited range deeply discounted, and the internet.

The other part of the blame lies again with the large booksellers who have not kept their business model in line with the internet, though admittedly it is difficult with High St rents and business rates. But we have the crazy situation that, for example, Waterstones online and High St businesses effectively have a Chinese wall between them. Staff at a store are completely unable to help where an internet order goes wrong, and the online side is not responding, on the grounds of customer confidentiality. It's also impossible, or was, to order a "book online - pickup at store," which almost all other retailers with both online and High St presence manage to do, even in very competitive market sectors.

[oyster]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Did you read my post or not? Because you're harping on about service again.
Listen - service is no use if it happens whilst I'm at work. Geddit?


As to the market vs supermarkets, I agree with you there.

[Kermit power]

I used to accept this notion that supermarkets could close down a high street and cause all this loss of jobs.

Since watching what has happened since Tesco opened in Ilminster in Somerset (where my parents live), however, I'm no longer convinced.

From what I can see, the High Street there is, if anything, busier than it was before. The outstanding butcher is still going strong, and all the other shops appear to be thriving too.

From what I can gather, the main effect of the Tesco arrival is that people no longer go from Ilminster and the surrounding villages to either Taunton or Yeovil for their big shops.