£20 Billion to promote lending whilst the Bonuses go on:

[crankedup]

munky said:

Randy Winkman said:

Soovy said:

roachcoach said:

Du1point8 said:

To use a bank as the sacrificial lamb and then blame them in the same breath... Then blame all bankers when the only banks that had severe issues being the ones that had the greatest mortgage exposure to the public... nice way to divert most of the blame.

Of course it is, the other biggest blind spot here is the greedy public - had they not borrowed like lunatics, we'd have been fine too. Takes two to cause a default situation. Clearly, the bankers wielding shotguns forcing us to take unaffordable loans bypassed my house. Or I was out at the time.

But don't you see, they made us borrow, they forced us to take out those big mortgages at 110% so that I could become a property millionaire like Sarah Beeney

The public are responsible for their own lives - bankers are responsible for banks. If Tescos goes bust, it's Tescos bosses fault, not the customers'. Why is it different for banks?

As an example, banks can go "bust" purely because customers panic, through no obvious fault of the bosses. I've never heard of a run on a supermarket, where all the customers panic and return their shopping en masse for a refund. (I know, this wasn't the case with RBS or HBOS)

Plenty of food processors and growers have gone bust over the years when the public stop buying en-masse a certain product. Example recently when the humble cucumber was thought to be the source of an e-coli break out. Millions of cucumbers dumped leaving the growers bankrupt in some cases. Or the orange that some loony was said to have injected with poison. Risky business growing food!

[Du1point8]

R11ysf said:

Sorry mate, really depends on what they are doing and at what bank but I know guys who have gone temping in middle office roles getting £90-£100k. Changes jobs every 12-18 months but that's that. He could get a full time role at £60k and whether you want to believe it or not middle office rec is no more difficult that the accounts rec I was doing for Deloitte and Touche at 17. Piss easy work, very well rewarded.

As for a 6 figure base you don't need to take risks and move banks. All the guys I know trading are all on 6 figure as a base and none of them have moved. Also the upside is many many multiples of that. Compare that to a normal person.

As I said, most people know sod all about the city and spout st all the time but let's not pretend we are hard done by, we trade off job security for an upside that is unimaginable elsewhere (short of starting your own company)

Temping middle/back/front is a lot more than 350/400 a day, try adding 150/200 and you are the going start rate that people I know look at.

trading is 6 figure, Im not talking trading, Im talking the code monkeys and everyone else.

People assuming banking is just trading, its not... its from support guys, analysts, excel VBA, BAs, PMs, coders, testers, architects, integration, release specialists... If you are in an investment bank, then sure the money is nice but they expect their pound of flesh too.

Corporate banking in the city is a lot less, move to retail banking and its less again.

So when I talk banking I mean it as a whole as its really not correct to assume everyone is on the trading floor.

[speedy_thrills]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Can you explain this (Not the spending part, we all knew that years ago)?

They way I understand it is BOE prints real money which it uses to buy government debt. Through increase in money supply this prevents deflation. This continues until either the economy recovers and inflation control becomes the problem (at which point the government buys back debt from BOE allowing them to reduce the money supply) or the UK defaults on it's debt. The only thing it really costs is Sterling it's "sterling" reputation.

[speedy_thrills]

Du1point8 said:

So when I talk banking I mean it as a whole as its really not correct to assume everyone is on the trading floor.

True, counter to popular belief there are still some bankers who are actually doing things that help small and medium grow.


Throughout developed countries commercial banks have done as we wanted for years by lending us up to the hilt to indulge in a property orgy. BOE has done as we wanted by keeping rates too low throughout the boom (though I still remember threads here complaining about the "high rates" of the time) and now forcing rates to record lows to prop up the asset bubble. Government has done what we wanted by keeping those banks afloat, our savings safe, kept spending up and borrowed at very high rates. All this was possible because there wasn't much conflict for years with these actions.

Now the situation has changed and banks are getting more responsible with lending, government is starting to implement a few of the many measures it will need to curb debt and BOE is using counter measures to stop deflation. The wealth gain many property owners experienced was very small or not at all over the same period, debt grew at a very high rate but outside of the bubble the UK's economy did not experience nearly the same levels of growth. The idea that a whole nation might get wealthier at a high rate though the appreciation of an asset without any significant change in other areas of economic growth seems obviously questionable.

Until the bubble deflates or is deflated the cost of debt servicing is likely to hold many in bondage to their mortgages and will be a significant drag to the rest of the economy. It's probably true however in my view that banks will have to change their perception of risk as investment in a well diversified stock portfolio would appear to be of little more risk than property speculation.

[R11ysf]

Du1point8 said:

Temping middle/back/front is a lot more than 350/400 a day, try adding 150/200 and you are the going start rate that people I know look at.

trading is 6 figure, Im not talking trading, Im talking the code monkeys and everyone else.

People assuming banking is just trading, its not... its from support guys, analysts, excel VBA, BAs, PMs, coders, testers, architects, integration, release specialists... If you are in an investment bank, then sure the money is nice but they expect their pound of flesh too.

Corporate banking in the city is a lot less, move to retail banking and its less again.

So when I talk banking I mean it as a whole as its really not correct to assume everyone is on the trading floor.

I know this, you are actually re-inforcing my point. I was saying that people aren't getting £40k for working in finance and getting poor pay and low job security. You've even just admitted that "monkeys" can get £100k and middle office work is £120k-£150k. I was pointing out I know someone getting £90k for temp work he's only been doing a year and it isn't complex. If he was doing a similar role for River Island he'd be getting £18-£20k. I.e. finance gets rewarded dis-proportionally high for the level of work. In return the job security is lower.

Also, when these discussions come up I discount retail banking as they aren't so susceptible to the hiring and firing and investment and corporate banking are in the extreme.

[eric twinge]

R11ysf said:

Du1point8 said:

Temping middle/back/front is a lot more than 350/400 a day, try adding 150/200 and you are the going start rate that people I know look at.

trading is 6 figure, Im not talking trading, Im talking the code monkeys and everyone else.

People assuming banking is just trading, its not... its from support guys, analysts, excel VBA, BAs, PMs, coders, testers, architects, integration, release specialists... If you are in an investment bank, then sure the money is nice but they expect their pound of flesh too.

Corporate banking in the city is a lot less, move to retail banking and its less again.

So when I talk banking I mean it as a whole as its really not correct to assume everyone is on the trading floor.

I know this, you are actually re-inforcing my point. I was saying that people aren't getting £40k for working in finance and getting poor pay and low job security. You've even just admitted that "monkeys" can get £100k and middle office work is £120k-£150k. I was pointing out I know someone getting £90k for temp work he's only been doing a year and it isn't complex. If he was doing a similar role for River Island he'd be getting £18-£20k. I.e. finance gets rewarded dis-proportionally high for the level of work. In return the job security is lower.

Also, when these discussions come up I discount retail banking as they aren't so susceptible to the hiring and firing and investment and corporate banking are in the extreme.

tell me where mate, as I have been in the city for almost ten years and just got to 46K.

Hang on, if a monkey can get 100k, what does that make me

[southendpier]

I am with Bos.

they will only allow £ 10k. unsecured...

...including credit cards.

Most suppliers are reducing credit terms and require paying on the day. Meaning credit cards are needed.

Many clients struggle to hit 60 day payments. For large companies 60 days is a minimum that they put in their purchase terms.

The difference between paying and getting paid is what sme will need unsecured lending on so that Staff get paid.

I now need to provide a personal guarantee for a 3k overdraft. My relationship manager has changed twice, all the bank want to do is sell me insurance, they are useless at this too BTW.

I am am only allowed to spend 10k on the credit card per month, this used to be unlimited so long as you pumped funds to the card to keep credit available plus you paid the full amount at the end of every month. This I did every month for 6 years.

The hurdles and restrictions put in place by the banks does cause a problem to me as an Small business.
I am one of tens of thousands of sme that will have similar new restricitons.

For my perspective the banks are simply restricting flow of cash funds to shore up themselves.


Any lending they are doing is secured, generally against the one asset value people still have which is their home.

The bank has no real risk.

I find it hard to shed a tear for the poor bankers.

[NorthernBoy]

Steffan said:

Soovy.

I would think you work in Financial Services or Financial Investment.

Would I be right?

Heaven forbid you should listen to someone who knows the business!

Oh, and I'll second his point about you talking rubbish. There has been a scythe taken to banking jobs and pay in recent years. To pretend otherwise is just ridiculous.

[Bing o]

I think we should listen to Steffan.

The Euro went bust last autumn.

Muamba's prognosis could not be good.

Steffan, is there anything else you'd like to be wrong about?

[Steffan]

NorthernBoy said:

Steffan said:

Soovy.

I would think you work in Financial Services or Financial Investment.

Would I be right?

Heaven forbid you should listen to someone who knows the business!

Oh, and I'll second his point about you talking rubbish. There has been a scythe taken to banking jobs and pay in recent years. To pretend otherwise is just ridiculous.

I am not sure that being a banker is necessarily the best way to assess the Banking problems. You view from within the system. That is different to viewing from without, but not necessarily better.

My concern is and remains, that nothing in any of the complaints against my original post, actually addresses the problems that I highlighted. The Banks are still not adequately controlled. The Banks are not lending to SME's in the UK as we need them to lend.

Interestingly several comments have suggested that the collapse of the Banking systems was the responsibility of the Regulators and not the Bankers.

I think that it just utter tripe.

But convenient tripe, which allows the argument that it was not the bankers fault, to be promulgated.

It is of course nonsense and IMO unsustainable nonsense at that.

The Bankers ruined their own businesses entirely by their own efforts. The Taxpayer became the fall guy who had to pick up the tab. I see no fairness or equity in that situation.

No one forced the Bankers to lend to anyone. No one assessed their risk in lending other than the Bankers. It was bankers refusal to lend to other risky Bankers that finally precipitated the problem. It was reckless and wholly unsustainable overtrading and lending by the Banks which created the crisis in the first place.

The Banking crisis was a banking problem.

No one else's responsibility. Bankers. Unfortunately it has become ours.

If you feel your argument is strengthened by telling me that I know nothing, in the hope that such a suggestion, supports your arguments that, is your choice.

I prefer to argue the case rather than the characters behind the argument.

I do think that, it is a coincidence, that the defences being put forward are very largely from Financial industry men. I expected that.

For the government to be unable to achieve any meaningful lending through UK Banking sources to support fledgling and growing SME businesses is disgraceful.

I have not seen one constructive suggestion as to how this could be achieved in four pages on the subject in this article.

If you think there is a better way then suggest that way forward. This is a small island nation that needs unity of purpose at strategic level in the economy.

Quite simply, we have not got that.

I think that is not surprising given the attitude of the Banks.

[rich1231]

Bing o said:

I think we should listen to Steffan.

The Euro went bust last autumn.

Muamba's prognosis could not be good.

Steffan, is there anything else you'd like to be wrong about?

He does it twice a day.

[Steffan]

rich1231 said:

Bing o said:

I think we should listen to Steffan.

The Euro went bust last autumn.

Muamba's prognosis could not be good.

Steffan, is there anything else you'd like to be wrong about?

He does it twice a day.

As other have commented on my Euro post, the Greeks went broke recently. It has been declared as a default.

The fact that the EU are playing silly idiots is up to the EU. It will not last.

If you think I am wrong on the Banks then that is your opinion.

However I would be interested to hear your means of achieving meaningful lending to small businesses with banking in the UK as it is.

[rich1231]

Steffan said:

As other have commented on my Euro post, the Greeks went broke recently. It has been declared as a default.

The fact that the EU are playing silly idiots is up to the EU. It will not last.

If you think I am wrong on the Banks then that is your opinion.

However I would be interested to hear your means of achieving meaningful lending to small businesses with banking in the UK as it is.

I think you were wrong about 199 times out of 200. Well done for congratulating yourself though at being so st.

I have better chances of shagging Danni Minogue.

[groak]

roachcoach said:

Has anyone actually checked there's a market for good lending?

Lots of folks are debt averse at the moment, if there's no market for *responsible* lending, do we still blame banks?

Funnily enough I started forming the opinion that there was a HUGE market for good lending which banks weren't exploiting, so I went and got the necessary licences and now lend money. There's massive demand for borrowing right now. Great business. Should have got into it years ago.

Bankers aren't really much cop at doing business. As the crash rolled out I tried quite hard to explain to RBS (corporate) why it was an excellent time to buy up pricecrashed high yielding rental stock. They really didn't understand this, which made me think they were just stupid.

The moneylending game reinforces that opinion. This week's 'star' was the guy who needs £40k fast. He subsequently got £20k and is taking the balance from me. His bank (RBS again!) are humming and hawing and procrastinating and demanding and generally making a cock of it and making it plain they're not keen. I am. I'm very keen. Sound guy, good security, and £2k profit for me for a 3 month loan. £4k for 6. He'll clear it in 3 and - exactly as usual - will generate at least 2 other bits of business before the year's out. Nothing more certain. Lending is really very very simple. It's about security, and ability to repay. Making a big drama out of it, or making it anything more complicated is just silly, and a way to become profit-adverse.

[Bing o]

Steffan said:

The Banks are not lending to SME's in the UK as we need them to lend.

Then, on the subject of the banking collapse and in the same post...

Steffan said:

No one forced the Bankers to lend to anyone.

I

Think

Steffan

Knows

Not

What

He

Talks

About.


(And for the record, my bank just tried to install an ex Investment Banker as the Chief Risk Officer, and promptly got slapped down by the BaFIN and made to hire someone more appropriate - the regulations on banking have changed massively post-2008, it's just that you have to work in the sector to see the wholesale impact they are having on Prop desks and OTC derivatives as just 2 examples, hence why those of us in the business get pissed off with know-nothings trying to slag our careers and industry off based on media spin and half stories).

[speedy_thrills]

southendpier said:

I am with Bos. <Sob story>

FFS change banks. It's surprising to me that you've not already been poach given your misery at BoS.

groak said:

Bankers aren't really much cop at doing business.

Oy! To be fair often the hands of the people trying to make things work are tied (Yet other times I've seen them keen to lend to people that I wouldn't have let borrow a pen!).

For someone savvy there is actually a lot of room still, the banking market isn't crowded.

[southendpier]

speedy_thrills said:

Oy! To be fair often the hands of the people trying to make things work are tied (Yet other times I've seen them keen to lend to people that I wouldn't have let borrow a pen!).

For someone savvy there is actually a lot of room still, the banking market isn't crowded.

Change banks! ah yes that's the answer. Many thanks. Brilliant.

Edited by southendpier on Wednesday 21st March 08:44

[R11ysf]

eric twinge said:

tell me where mate, as I have been in the city for almost ten years and just got to 46K.

The city of London? Seriously mate I know people who were getting more than that temping year one out of uni with no previous experience. What are you doing? Did you enter from school and work your way up or something? My brother gets more than £46k after 10 years working in retail!

[roachcoach]

@Groak: Interesting, was genuinely curious.

[eric twinge]

R11ysf said:

eric twinge said:

tell me where mate, as I have been in the city for almost ten years and just got to 46K.

The city of London? Seriously mate I know people who were getting more than that temping year one out of uni with no previous experience. What are you doing? Did you enter from school and work your way up or something? My brother gets more than £46k after 10 years working in retail!

Corporate Actions, back/middle office, hardly well known for paying well really.