Chemotherapy - cancer? You're fit.
Discussion
The trenches for each group's position are already well established I see...
The truth is of course rather more pragmatic.
Is there a case to be made that too many are living off benefits when they could be working? I think yes, undoubtedly.
Is there a good case to be made to find ways of identifying these people and encouraging them to work? Yes.
Are there people where it is quite clear they are unfit for work and therefore should be supported by the state? Absolutely !
It therefore follows that the only way to identify each group is to systematically go through them. The problem is that this brings special interest groups on both sides and a shrieking media, only looking to find angles that reinforce their own belief system. As is already evident on this thread.
Is there a problem ? I am not sure there is - but there seems nothing wrong with encouraging people off welfare dependency if they can manage it. Assessment is the only way to do this.
If the question is " How can we accurately assess people's needs and so guide them accordingly?" then I am all ears. But the left wing rhetoric of "look at the nasty Tories oppressing the honest and disadvantaged" angle is not only inaccurate, but also really counterproductive and unhelpful to society in general.
The truth is of course rather more pragmatic.
Is there a case to be made that too many are living off benefits when they could be working? I think yes, undoubtedly.
Is there a good case to be made to find ways of identifying these people and encouraging them to work? Yes.
Are there people where it is quite clear they are unfit for work and therefore should be supported by the state? Absolutely !
It therefore follows that the only way to identify each group is to systematically go through them. The problem is that this brings special interest groups on both sides and a shrieking media, only looking to find angles that reinforce their own belief system. As is already evident on this thread.
Is there a problem ? I am not sure there is - but there seems nothing wrong with encouraging people off welfare dependency if they can manage it. Assessment is the only way to do this.
If the question is " How can we accurately assess people's needs and so guide them accordingly?" then I am all ears. But the left wing rhetoric of "look at the nasty Tories oppressing the honest and disadvantaged" angle is not only inaccurate, but also really counterproductive and unhelpful to society in general.
rich1231 said:
crankedup said:
From the two prog's I have watched it is impossible to cheat the system. The examination is such that it is almost impossible to gain the 15 points required on any of the set format tests. And that is the problem.
Can you lift an empty cardboard box and walk a few yards with it? Most people can, even a one armed person. How many jobs about where that is a requirement of the job? It proves no fitness whatsoever.
You are deluded sying it isnt possible to cheat the system.Can you lift an empty cardboard box and walk a few yards with it? Most people can, even a one armed person. How many jobs about where that is a requirement of the job? It proves no fitness whatsoever.
The part I found most telling doesn’t seem to have been mentioned.
The ‘advisor’ who smugly stated that he had never lost an appeal, and used this as evidence of the seriously flawed nature of the system.
It was exactly that. Evidence that a well informed advisor aware of loopholes and the right things to say can get you through.
He was quite proud of the fact that his ‘profession’ were getting 80% success rates.
I found him offensive.
The ‘advisor’ who smugly stated that he had never lost an appeal, and used this as evidence of the seriously flawed nature of the system.
It was exactly that. Evidence that a well informed advisor aware of loopholes and the right things to say can get you through.
He was quite proud of the fact that his ‘profession’ were getting 80% success rates.
I found him offensive.
BruceV8 said:
One of my friends lost both legs and suffered damage to his hands. Another lost one and a half legs and an arm. Both use motorised wheelchairs. Both work.
I would be interested to read more regarding these individuals. How long ago the accidents / or Military casualties occurred. Support received and support into work place given/ offered. Also what is the work these people carry out. It's heartening to hear of these situations and I am interested in reading more.
crankedup said:
Burrow01 said:
crankedup said:
Couple of prog's on telly last night, under cover Doctor gets trained ready to conduct the Governments ESA benefits tests on people currently in receipt of that benefit.
A chemotherapy cancer suffering patient is deemed fit for work, unless the chemo is administered intravenously.
I carried on working whilst having IV Chemo, would not have wanted to work on a building site but if you have an office / admin job its definitely possible. I did teleconferences actually from the Chemo ward, as its pretty boring so you might as well get something done, especially if you charge by the day....A chemotherapy cancer suffering patient is deemed fit for work, unless the chemo is administered intravenously.
Not saying this is the same for all forms of chemo and for everyone, but its not automatically stopping your from working
Not saying everyone having Chemo is fit to work, it can be seriously debilitating and is cumulative, you go downhill steadily. I was just pointing out that having IV Chemo does not necessarily mean you cannot do your job.
I think the problem with the tests is that they are with people who don't already have jobs, so declaring that you can do some jobs does not guarentee that there will be a job available that suits your capabilities.
The problem is that Disability Allowance for some people means that they never even look for another job again. Having only one arm will obviously make it more difficult for someone to pursuade an employer to take them on, but the question is should the public purse be subsidising the person for life because of that.
toppstuff said:
The trenches for each group's position are already well established I see...
The truth is of course rather more pragmatic.
Is there a case to be made that too many are living off benefits when they could be working? I think yes, undoubtedly.
Is there a good case to be made to find ways of identifying these people and encouraging them to work? Yes.
Are there people where it is quite clear they are unfit for work and therefore should be supported by the state? Absolutely !
It therefore follows that the only way to identify each group is to systematically go through them. The problem is that this brings special interest groups on both sides and a shrieking media, only looking to find angles that reinforce their own belief system. As is already evident on this thread.
Is there a problem ? I am not sure there is - but there seems nothing wrong with encouraging people off welfare dependency if they can manage it. Assessment is the only way to do this.
If the question is " How can we accurately assess people's needs and so guide them accordingly?" then I am all ears. But the left wing rhetoric of "look at the nasty Tories oppressing the honest and disadvantaged" angle is not only inaccurate, but also really counterproductive and unhelpful to society in general.
Agree with this, sensible actions to reduce public spending being hijacked by the various interests and distorting the discussion...The truth is of course rather more pragmatic.
Is there a case to be made that too many are living off benefits when they could be working? I think yes, undoubtedly.
Is there a good case to be made to find ways of identifying these people and encouraging them to work? Yes.
Are there people where it is quite clear they are unfit for work and therefore should be supported by the state? Absolutely !
It therefore follows that the only way to identify each group is to systematically go through them. The problem is that this brings special interest groups on both sides and a shrieking media, only looking to find angles that reinforce their own belief system. As is already evident on this thread.
Is there a problem ? I am not sure there is - but there seems nothing wrong with encouraging people off welfare dependency if they can manage it. Assessment is the only way to do this.
If the question is " How can we accurately assess people's needs and so guide them accordingly?" then I am all ears. But the left wing rhetoric of "look at the nasty Tories oppressing the honest and disadvantaged" angle is not only inaccurate, but also really counterproductive and unhelpful to society in general.
Oakey said:
crankedup said:
From the two prog's I have watched it is impossible to cheat the system. The examination is such that it is almost impossible to gain the 15 points required on any of the set format tests. And that is the problem.
Can you lift an empty cardboard box and walk a few yards with it? Most people can, even a one armed person. How many jobs about where that is a requirement of the job? It proves no fitness whatsoever.
Really? Impossible?Can you lift an empty cardboard box and walk a few yards with it? Most people can, even a one armed person. How many jobs about where that is a requirement of the job? It proves no fitness whatsoever.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4239460/...
TheSun said:
A CANCER victim swindled £110,000 in benefits to jet off on luxury holidays after she was cured by the NHS.
Grasping Debra Allan, 49, who lied that she could barely walk, was jailed for 18 months yesterday.
In five years the ex hairdresser squandered cash she fiddled on holidays to Dubai, Laos and Thailand. In one year alone she spent FIVE MONTHS in Italy.
Mum-of-three Allan — who got the all-clear after a hysterectomy for cervical cancer in 2003 — claimed she took 15 minutes to walk 30 yards.
She said she needed a mobility scooter, plus help getting out of bed, using the toilet and someone to cook and give her medication.
But holiday snaps showed her on a treadmill and on waterslides in Dubai.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4238667/Disability-benefit-cheat-caught-on-rollercoaster.htmlGrasping Debra Allan, 49, who lied that she could barely walk, was jailed for 18 months yesterday.
In five years the ex hairdresser squandered cash she fiddled on holidays to Dubai, Laos and Thailand. In one year alone she spent FIVE MONTHS in Italy.
Mum-of-three Allan — who got the all-clear after a hysterectomy for cervical cancer in 2003 — claimed she took 15 minutes to walk 30 yards.
She said she needed a mobility scooter, plus help getting out of bed, using the toilet and someone to cook and give her medication.
But holiday snaps showed her on a treadmill and on waterslides in Dubai.
TheSun said:
A BENEFIT cheat who claimed he could barely walk has been jailed — after he was caught riding a rollercoaster at Alton Towers.
Joseph Smith, 41, of Runcorn, Cheshire, said he could only walk eight metres without suffering severe discomfort.
But fraud investigators caught him staying on his feet for long periods at the Staffordshire theme park, as well as enjoying himself on the rides.
He was also filmed lifting bundles of traffic cones while working as a car park marshall under a fake name.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4120277/Disability-benefit-cheat-Albert-Davies-filmed-playing-golf.htmlJoseph Smith, 41, of Runcorn, Cheshire, said he could only walk eight metres without suffering severe discomfort.
But fraud investigators caught him staying on his feet for long periods at the Staffordshire theme park, as well as enjoying himself on the rides.
He was also filmed lifting bundles of traffic cones while working as a car park marshall under a fake name.
TheSun said:
A GOLF-loving benefits cheat has narrowly avoided jail after being filmed on the green while claiming he could hardly move.
Albert Davies, 68, claimed nearly £30,000 in five years after saying his rheumatoid arthritis meant he could not get in and out of the shower.
Davies, who got the highest level of Disability Living Allowance, also told officials that he needed his wife’s help to cut his food.
He was rumbled when investigators filmed him playing golf in Sutton Coldfield, West Mids, several times.
Albert Davies, 68, claimed nearly £30,000 in five years after saying his rheumatoid arthritis meant he could not get in and out of the shower.
Davies, who got the highest level of Disability Living Allowance, also told officials that he needed his wife’s help to cut his food.
He was rumbled when investigators filmed him playing golf in Sutton Coldfield, West Mids, several times.
CaptainSlow said:
uk_vette said:
.
Sorry a little OT.
Does any one know why we still give money away, when we quite clearly need the money in UK ?
Vette
I assume as a humanitarian gesture to support the real starving in the world, or as a PR exercise to try to boost UK trade exports. Either is money better spent than spending cash on the workshy in this country. I'd much rather £100 of tax payers money is spent ensuring a dozen children sat on a desert dust bowl crawling with flies get a bowl of rice and some basic medicine than paying for some slob's Sky subscription.Sorry a little OT.
Does any one know why we still give money away, when we quite clearly need the money in UK ?
Vette
To the OP, unfortunately the culture we have somehow ended up with in this country has meant the real needy in this country will lose out. The examples you gave obviously require our support as many of us may need if we lose our health. The abusers of the system spoil is for all of us and they are the real people that should be targetted.
Sorry for the rant.
crankedup said:
Nobody supports benefit cheats, but these examples are not related to the examinations we are debating in the thread. No mention of the people being subjected to the examinations.
Wtf are you talking about, you said "it's impossible to cheat the system". Clearly these people were cheating the system otherwise they wouldn't have been claiming DLA whilst dicking about at Alton Towers or the like. As for the 'examinations' in this thread, that guy who had the heart attack had it five weeks later, not two. Any more inaccuracies to your OP?
Burrow01 said:
crankedup said:
Burrow01 said:
crankedup said:
Couple of prog's on telly last night, under cover Doctor gets trained ready to conduct the Governments ESA benefits tests on people currently in receipt of that benefit.
A chemotherapy cancer suffering patient is deemed fit for work, unless the chemo is administered intravenously.
I carried on working whilst having IV Chemo, would not have wanted to work on a building site but if you have an office / admin job its definitely possible. I did teleconferences actually from the Chemo ward, as its pretty boring so you might as well get something done, especially if you charge by the day....A chemotherapy cancer suffering patient is deemed fit for work, unless the chemo is administered intravenously.
Not saying this is the same for all forms of chemo and for everyone, but its not automatically stopping your from working
Not saying everyone having Chemo is fit to work, it can be seriously debilitating and is cumulative, you go downhill steadily. I was just pointing out that having IV Chemo does not necessarily mean you cannot do your job.
I think the problem with the tests is that they are with people who don't already have jobs, so declaring that you can do some jobs does not guarentee that there will be a job available that suits your capabilities.
The problem is that Disability Allowance for some people means that they never even look for another job again. Having only one arm will obviously make it more difficult for someone to pursuade an employer to take them on, but the question is should the public purse be subsidising the person for life because of that.
For the disabled through loss of limb(s) we as a compassionate Country should provide living allowances, or rather maintain them IMO. Its the shirkers we need to sift out. If persons want to work disregarding physical situation that should be encouraged but not demanded.
There are several issues here, one of which is: should we be paying allowances for medical problems that cannot be objectively diagnosed? For instance, back pain.
The medical profession is not set up for the purposes of lie detection.
I think most people would be "happy" enough that someone with debilitating back pain is debilitated, i.e. not spending several hours a day walking the dog (although obviously walking might be therapeutic, you can do that before and after work).
I'm surprised no-one has suggested electronic ankle bracelets.
The medical profession is not set up for the purposes of lie detection.
I think most people would be "happy" enough that someone with debilitating back pain is debilitated, i.e. not spending several hours a day walking the dog (although obviously walking might be therapeutic, you can do that before and after work).
I'm surprised no-one has suggested electronic ankle bracelets.
Jasandjules said:
Justayellowbadge said:
The ‘advisor’ who smugly stated that he had never lost an appeal, and used this as evidence of the seriously flawed nature of the system.
crankedup said:
The point is the man was unfit for work, with the prospect of major heart surgery and the loss of income from his benefit was adding to stress levels. Not helpful.
What heart surgery was he due to have? It doesn't say in the article. It could be that he was due to have a pacemaker fitted to correct an abnormal rhythm and that his heart condition could have killed him at any time regardless of stress or activity. We don't know though, so we can't say whether he was unfit for work or not.Burrow01 said:
toppstuff said:
The trenches for each group's position are already well established I see...
The truth is of course rather more pragmatic.
Is there a case to be made that too many are living off benefits when they could be working? I think yes, undoubtedly.
Is there a good case to be made to find ways of identifying these people and encouraging them to work? Yes.
Are there people where it is quite clear they are unfit for work and therefore should be supported by the state? Absolutely !
It therefore follows that the only way to identify each group is to systematically go through them. The problem is that this brings special interest groups on both sides and a shrieking media, only looking to find angles that reinforce their own belief system. As is already evident on this thread.
Is there a problem ? I am not sure there is - but there seems nothing wrong with encouraging people off welfare dependency if they can manage it. Assessment is the only way to do this.
If the question is " How can we accurately assess people's needs and so guide them accordingly?" then I am all ears. But the left wing rhetoric of "look at the nasty Tories oppressing the honest and disadvantaged" angle is not only inaccurate, but also really counterproductive and unhelpful to society in general.
Agree with this, sensible actions to reduce public spending being hijacked by the various interests and distorting the discussion...The truth is of course rather more pragmatic.
Is there a case to be made that too many are living off benefits when they could be working? I think yes, undoubtedly.
Is there a good case to be made to find ways of identifying these people and encouraging them to work? Yes.
Are there people where it is quite clear they are unfit for work and therefore should be supported by the state? Absolutely !
It therefore follows that the only way to identify each group is to systematically go through them. The problem is that this brings special interest groups on both sides and a shrieking media, only looking to find angles that reinforce their own belief system. As is already evident on this thread.
Is there a problem ? I am not sure there is - but there seems nothing wrong with encouraging people off welfare dependency if they can manage it. Assessment is the only way to do this.
If the question is " How can we accurately assess people's needs and so guide them accordingly?" then I am all ears. But the left wing rhetoric of "look at the nasty Tories oppressing the honest and disadvantaged" angle is not only inaccurate, but also really counterproductive and unhelpful to society in general.
In terms of 'having only one arm will obviously make it more difficult for someone to pursuade an employer to take them on', fair play to a local CoOp as they recently employed a capable checkout operator with only one arm that works, i.e. effectively one arm, and they've coped perfectly well when I've seen them at work. This would seem to be something benefiting all concerned.
There used to be a daytime TV programme about people on benefits a few years ago and it seemed quite apparent that the last governments attempts at getting the unemployment figures down led to a lot of people being put on DA.
One girl had an illness that led to her losing her job. She got better, tried to find work but there was some sort of deadline that meant she had to find work in a certain period or her job seekers allowance was stopped (or reduced), this led to her getting stressed.
Once she mentioned getting stressed out, they said, no worries, we'll put you on DA and she ended up on more money than before.
It seemed in those days one cough or a sniffle was all that was needed to get you off the unemployed list and on to DA, making the figures look better than they really were.
I fully support the need for people to be assessed, but right from the get go this system has been flawed, with so many cases being overturned on appeal,or down to just differences of opinion between doctors.
One girl had an illness that led to her losing her job. She got better, tried to find work but there was some sort of deadline that meant she had to find work in a certain period or her job seekers allowance was stopped (or reduced), this led to her getting stressed.
Once she mentioned getting stressed out, they said, no worries, we'll put you on DA and she ended up on more money than before.
It seemed in those days one cough or a sniffle was all that was needed to get you off the unemployed list and on to DA, making the figures look better than they really were.
I fully support the need for people to be assessed, but right from the get go this system has been flawed, with so many cases being overturned on appeal,or down to just differences of opinion between doctors.
crankedup said:
If a patient is well enough to work such as your situation thats a good thing. But would you have wanted to journey to work on public transport and face the eight hour day five days a week. Also the examination makes no allowances, if your receiving oral chemo you are fit for work. Would that patient be able to concentrate 100% on the work, its a minefield in reality both for the employee and employer.
No, the examination says if you take chemo orally, you need to take the assessment. If you are unfit to work by the definitions of the assessment then you would still be unfit for work. The assessment looks to see if you are capable of doing some work, not all work. Even if that's only five hours a week, the idea is that everybody should do whatever work they can do. Again, without the actual details of the situations mentioned it's impossible to see whether the facts have been bent to fit a particular narrative.
johnfm said:
league67 said:
Pesty said:
johnfm said:
Boo hoo.
Why don't you dip into your savings and pay these people to sit at home if it so upsetting.
seriously?Why don't you dip into your savings and pay these people to sit at home if it so upsetting.
think that and it's not just mindless bravado, you should be shot. Preferably, imho, before you contaminate genetic pool.
The robust testing and appeals procedure should ( though may not necessarily) weed out people who have chosen sickness benefit as a lifestyle choice.
The question is 'what exactly is too sick to work'?
Quite clearly, some jobs (if they are available) could be done by people with a variety of long term illnesses.
Some long term illnesses may not make work possible. These people are the ones who need welfare support. As with the NHS and most other forms of welfare, the scope creep has become so wide that there is too little help available to genuine claimants.
As for karma, that is what health insurance is for.
, but I will stick up for your point.I worked as a care assistant for many years, and there were 2 types of people, those that want to work, and those that want to freeload.
There was a time when if you were disabled or unable to work, unless your family could support you...you were found dead in the street! I'm not advocating we return to those times, but something clearly needs to be done to stop the rot! What’s worse is there seems to be a culture that spans generations now, so the mother is claiming disability allowance and daughter/son sees how easy it is and fakes it too. Please don’t be naive to believe it doesn’t happen, there are loads of people that are claiming the allowances that could work with minimal adjustment. Maybe if these people hadn’t taken the p1ss for so long, the genuine ones wouldn’t need to lose out. But as with everything we've become more cynical.
Plus as already mentioned, those that want to try do! Those that want to claim, know the system. It doesn’t take much effort to feign a cough, walk slowly, look ill...just watch Ferris...he fooled many people!
It is an unfortunate by product of the system, ruined by the a
holes of this world. It isn’t the current governments fault, as they are trying to tackle the mistakes made by the previous lot. The free giving society that once was cannot be afforded any longer.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff