Why is the "death of the town center" a problem?
Discussion
Twincam16 said:
Please explain to me how the internet and new technology has created more working-class jobs than it has destroyed.
Working class jobs. Umm. How is any job not done by someone who works and as such is working class?The problem here appears to be with you classifying the jobs.
Jobs, are to me. Jobs. They are done by people in exchange for cash. HM Gov and industry, are charged with ensuring the population is educated to a level sufficient to do those jobs created.
Why MUST working class jobs be in shops on the highstreet?
Insanity Magnet said:
youngsyr said:
What we're talking about here is capitalism, and unfortunately it has been demonstrated over and over again that it's the least worst method of organising our society.
Take profit (aka "efficiency") out of the equasion and you end up with an unreliable supply of unwanted products at high prices.
On the plus side, the UK has done extremely well out of capitalism at the expense of others - look at the living conditions of the Chinese who are making a lot of the goods we consume, for example. What we are now seeing is a rebalancing of international wealth to a much fairer level and I can't see any way to stop it.
Add in ever improving efficiency (automation) and increasing global population and things probably aren't looking too rosy (for the middle class west, anyway).Take profit (aka "efficiency") out of the equasion and you end up with an unreliable supply of unwanted products at high prices.
On the plus side, the UK has done extremely well out of capitalism at the expense of others - look at the living conditions of the Chinese who are making a lot of the goods we consume, for example. What we are now seeing is a rebalancing of international wealth to a much fairer level and I can't see any way to stop it.
Edited by Insanity Magnet on Thursday 3rd January 14:32
I can't think of one - the only way to combat the reduction in UK's relative wealth is to improve our ability to add wealth internationally and to do that we will either need to reduce our labour costs (and living standards) or maintain our edge in providing high skilled services and high tech products.
There is (was?) a bit of a battle going on in Machynlleth. Not sure if Tesco have won yet but it would not surprise me. The local shop owners are not impressed, many interviews with owners saying they would not bother competing. Interesting comments on the news though that people were traveling many miles to the nearest tesco but they had all those local shops right on their door step.
Maybe the majority deserve what they get.
Maybe the majority deserve what they get.
Munter said:
Twincam16 said:
Please explain to me how the internet and new technology has created more working-class jobs than it has destroyed.
Working class jobs. Umm. How is any job not done by someone who works and as such is working class?The problem here appears to be with you classifying the jobs.
Jobs, are to me. Jobs. They are done by people in exchange for cash. HM Gov and industry, are charged with ensuring the population is educated to a level sufficient to do those jobs created.
Why MUST working class jobs be in shops on the highstreet?
And by 'working-class' I mean in the traditional sense that 'If you're working-class you have your name on your uniform, if you're middle-class you have your name on the office door and if you're upper-class you have your name on the building.' I mean unskilled or semi-skilled workers who work for someone, as opposed to middle-management, skilled tradesmen or people capable of running a business with all the self-administration that entails.
jmorgan said:
There is (was?) a bit of a battle going on in Machynlleth. Not sure if Tesco have won yet but it would not surprise me. The local shop owners are not impressed, many interviews with owners saying they would not bother competing. Interesting comments on the news though that people were traveling many miles to the nearest tesco but they had all those local shops right on their door step.
Maybe the majority deserve what they get.
And the same thing in Aber.Maybe the majority deserve what they get.
RYH64E said:
crankedup said:
Completely agree, although when I go to shop in Ipswich I use the 'Park and Ride' scheme which is good and cheap. Its fare is cheaper than the in town car parks.
I went into Ipswich on the weekend, parked in the Buttermarket car park because I'm a lazy so and so and it's right in the town centre, total cost £1.80. Still hate shopping though, if I could do it all online I would.
The snarl up of traffic is a nightmare whilst work on the new roundabout is ongoing.Munter said:
I would discuss each individual on the highstreet, but I'm not sure we have the time or the space on the internet to do so. So I'm somewhat forced to generalise. And in general most people shopping in our town center are pretty dim. For example they will stop in doorways, and other pinch points and swear at you if you ask them to step aside a little. They swear at their kids for misbehaving, and at their partners for not caring. They will barge to the front of queues or fail to see free tills when at the front of a queue. Some people may be exceptions to that. But most...not in my experience.
The one that never fails to amuse me are are huge queues for the Pay Stations for multi-storey car parks on the ground / shopping level whilst on the parking levels the Pay Stations invariably have little or no queues. I can never understand why people do that. JonRB said:
crankedup said:
High Street shopping is a consumer choice based upon cost,convenience,loyalty and most likely a few other factors aside. Its obvious the traditional High Street shop has had its day falling prey to consumer choice. People increasingly shop on-line or in a 'out of town' warehouse, and some of them are dying due to internet shopping. Attempts to halt the trend are well intentioned but bound to fail, progress is an unstoppable wave.
If I were a High Street retailer I would certainly investigate shifting base, perhaps with some of my retail colleagues to form a small consortium, into a 'out of town' or share a larger in town establishment. The bigger traders have already done this with success it seems.
As for the physical High Street, convert from retail into domestic homes.
I think it depends. If I were a High Street retailer I would certainly investigate shifting base, perhaps with some of my retail colleagues to form a small consortium, into a 'out of town' or share a larger in town establishment. The bigger traders have already done this with success it seems.
As for the physical High Street, convert from retail into domestic homes.
The way I see it there are two types of shopper. There are the "I know what I want to buy and I have come here to buy it" types. More often men, but obviously not exclusively. These are the types who will do most of their shopping online or go to a retail park.
Then there is the type who like to "go out shopping" and make impulse purchases. Often, but again not always, women. For them, "going shopping" is an enjoyable way of spending an afternoon and you just don't get that online or at a retail park. Unless that out of town retail park is like a Mall or Shopping Centre.
Personally, as the latter type of shopper, I'd be sad if we no longer had High Street shopping as I like wandering round the shops of a Saturday afternoon.
Twincam16 said:
I didn't say they had, I just asked you to explain how the internet and new technology has created more working-class jobs than it has destroyed.
And I'm trying to keep it on topic. Why must those jobs be on the high street, and not in an out of center retail location? Because that's the question I'm asking with the thread.If you insist on asking silly questions have this for your collection. How many "working class" jobs has internet shopping removed?
And How many "middle class" jobs should be removed to create the "working class" jobs?
Keep in mind internet shopping is basically employing everybody at Yodel for a start. I doubt royal mail would exist without it either.
Your position is utter madness. We should not change the high street for fear of removing some "working class" jobs, which may not be removed, but may just be relocated, we don't really know, but we should not do it.
sparkythecat said:
The French seem able to manage their town centres much better than we do. Sure, they have out of town retail sites for the daily needs, but there are many more smaller shops in the town centres selling niche and high end goods that appear to be doing well. Street cafe bars, well kept public spaces and thriving street markets are places where people can meet and relax and take pleasure in enjoying a shopping and socialising experience.
Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
I'm not so convinced about the French shopping experience. Whilst the idea of lots of independent shops is a nice idea in theory, it's a complete pain in the arse trying to find things you actually need if you happen to be in small town which doesn't have an out of town shopping area nearby, and if you can find it, it tends to be far more expensive due to the lack of buying power.Rather than trying to relax and enjoy a similar retail experience, we Brits seem preoccupied with bargain pricing and chain store merchandise. As a consequence, our town centres have become by necessity what our spending patterns have dictated.
When I'm here, I do tend to think of that particular grass as being greener, but when I go over there, I find myself remembering the big benefit of identikit High Streets... It's much easier to find what you want.
Also, these days, many of the markets are either selling the sort of cheap tat you'd expect to find on a market in darkest urban Essex, selling generic produce (often the same as that in the supermarkets) at silly prices, or selling decent foodstuffs with even more absurd mark-ups which you could get at a fraction of the price from the local supplier's farm shop.
Kermit power said:
selling the sort of cheap tat you'd expect to find on a market in darkest urban Essex, selling generic produce (often the same as that in the supermarkets) at silly prices, or selling decent foodstuffs with even more absurd mark-ups which you could get at a fraction of the price from the local supplier's farm shop.
The mark-ups are to pay the business rates, rent etc. UK government have engineered this crazy system where it's very expensive to buy stuff in shops now.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Indeed. My parents have a place in France, a short drive from Limgoes and we can park a 5 minute walk from the town centre during the week for free.Councils are killing the town centres, nobody else. It starts with the council needing some extra money, so instead of cutting cost like the private sector, the start charging for parking. Then they move on on increasing rates and rent for business, this kills off all but the most popular independent shops and people start looking online because there is more choice without having to pay to park, if indeed you can find anywhere to park.
Then the council, who are generally the ones moaning about the death of the town centre do something really clever, they give planning permission for an out of town retail park which has most of the same shops as the town centre and are then surprised when even less people go to the town centre!
This brings us to where we are today. But, by this point many people have become comfortable shopping on line and only buy something from a shop or town centre when they have to.
Munter said:
Twincam16 said:
I didn't say they had, I just asked you to explain how the internet and new technology has created more working-class jobs than it has destroyed.
And I'm trying to keep it on topic. Why must those jobs be on the high street, and not in an out of center retail location? Because that's the question I'm asking with the thread.If you insist on asking silly questions have this for your collection. How many "working class" jobs has internet shopping removed?
And How many "middle class" jobs should be removed to create the "working class" jobs?
Keep in mind internet shopping is basically employing everybody at Yodel for a start. I doubt royal mail would exist without it either.
Your position is utter madness. We should not change the high street for fear of removing some "working class" jobs, which may not be removed, but may just be relocated, we don't really know, but we should not do it.
I'm just thinking about the collapse of Clintons Cards. Largely the fault of Moonpig and Funky Pigoen.
Clintons employed about 5000 people around the country.
Moonpig employs six, and is offshored in Jersey.
Demand for the products was the same, but 'efficiency' meant that 5000 people mainly on low incomes had to lose their jobs while six incredibly rich people - who'd taken tax-dodging measures to make themselves even more rich - kept theirs.
If this kind of business model is extrapolated for every struggling form of physical retail business, you end up with an awful lot of people out of work and much less money circulating around the economy. With your general hatred of the human race and broad praise of greed, you seem all too willing to urge this process.
So, when all those industries that employed 5000 people are usurped by those employing six (and similar stories elsewhere for just about every business involving internet shopping), what are the majority going to do?
Globs said:
Kermit power said:
selling the sort of cheap tat you'd expect to find on a market in darkest urban Essex, selling generic produce (often the same as that in the supermarkets) at silly prices, or selling decent foodstuffs with even more absurd mark-ups which you could get at a fraction of the price from the local supplier's farm shop.
The mark-ups are to pay the business rates, rent etc. UK government have engineered this crazy system where it's very expensive to buy stuff in shops now.
Is Clinton's cards' demise down to Moonpig? Really? I'd've thought it was more down to people (generally) not that ar$ed to go into another shop and/or into the High Street at all when they can buy a card in Asda/Morrisons (other lower class supermarkets are available (my staff tell me)) or think to themselves "sod it; have you seen the price of stamps? I'll email, text, facetweet or whatever"?
I'm genuinely surprised Moonpig and the other one (especially the other one) are still going themselves.
Still, I couldn't believe we needed yet another car phone shop when Dixons opened The Link 20 odd years ago so what on Earth do I know when it comes to retail?
I'm genuinely surprised Moonpig and the other one (especially the other one) are still going themselves.
Still, I couldn't believe we needed yet another car phone shop when Dixons opened The Link 20 odd years ago so what on Earth do I know when it comes to retail?
Twincam16 said:
Demand for the products was the same, but 'efficiency' meant that 5000 people mainly on low incomes had to lose their jobs while six incredibly rich people - who'd taken tax-dodging measures to make themselves even more rich - kept theirs.
That was the argument the Luddites used for wanting to smash automated farm and textile machinery. You can't halt progress, Twinners. It's pure economics. Also, it is not "tax dodging"; it is making full use of legal beneficial tax rules. There is nothing illegal in making use of the tax regime as it currently exists, and only a complete moron would pay more tax than they were required to. Until the Channel Islands VAT exemption is done away with, companies will continue to operate out of there because it makes firm economic sense.
And, as an aside, Clintons cards were invariably rubbish anyway.
Globs said:
Local business finesrates can run at several thousand pounds per month too so councils favour town centres. They can also sting people for parking in charges and unreasonable fines without going to court.
Basically any town centre is a gold mine for councils, if you want to pay them less, shop online.
Business rates don't go to councils.Basically any town centre is a gold mine for councils, if you want to pay them less, shop online.
Twincam16 said:
So your real answer is 'I don't know'.
I'm just thinking about the collapse of Clintons Cards. Largely the fault of Moonpig and Funky Pigoen.
Clintons employed about 5000 people around the country.
Moonpig employs six, and is offshored in Jersey.
Demand for the products was the same, but 'efficiency' meant that 5000 people mainly on low incomes had to lose their jobs while six incredibly rich people - who'd taken tax-dodging measures to make themselves even more rich - kept theirs.
If this kind of business model is extrapolated for every struggling form of physical retail business, you end up with an awful lot of people out of work and much less money circulating around the economy. With your general hatred of the human race and broad praise of greed, you seem all too willing to urge this process.
So, when all those industries that employed 5000 people are usurped by those employing six (and similar stories elsewhere for just about every business involving internet shopping), what are the majority going to do?
Are you sure about that???I'm just thinking about the collapse of Clintons Cards. Largely the fault of Moonpig and Funky Pigoen.
Clintons employed about 5000 people around the country.
Moonpig employs six, and is offshored in Jersey.
Demand for the products was the same, but 'efficiency' meant that 5000 people mainly on low incomes had to lose their jobs while six incredibly rich people - who'd taken tax-dodging measures to make themselves even more rich - kept theirs.
If this kind of business model is extrapolated for every struggling form of physical retail business, you end up with an awful lot of people out of work and much less money circulating around the economy. With your general hatred of the human race and broad praise of greed, you seem all too willing to urge this process.
So, when all those industries that employed 5000 people are usurped by those employing six (and similar stories elsewhere for just about every business involving internet shopping), what are the majority going to do?
Retail Week article said:
Moonpig’s turnover was £38m for its financial year ending April 2011. The UK greetings card market is estimated to be worth £1bn per annum.
The full article is here. Even if they've grown a bit since then, I don't see how a company capturing less than 5% of the UK greetings card market can be blamed for the downfall of Clintons?Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff