Discussion
Welshbeef said:
MikeT66 said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29924710
It's this kind of thing that really gets me though - it's the government's tax(es) that increase the price so blooming much, but hey, let's ignore that facet of the overall cost, shall we?
As were spending more than we collect of Tax then removing Fuel duty where would you like the tax rise? Infact we need much higher taxes or devastating cuts It's this kind of thing that really gets me though - it's the government's tax(es) that increase the price so blooming much, but hey, let's ignore that facet of the overall cost, shall we?
While it is equally obvious that such ridiculously high fuel taxes reduces consumption and thereby the overall tax take.IE charge much less tax sell much more fuel get much more tax in the form of more fuel sold and by creating more economic growth in the economy by increasing disposable incomes.In which case as we all know it is the CO2 global warmist nazis and their commy/green cronies who are standing in the way of such common sense.
XJ Flyer said:
Firstly the oil companies would be justified in saying that that the market is willing to stand the type of present prices so if the government wants to see lower prices then cut the road fuel duty and VAT.
While it is equally obvious that such ridiculously high fuel taxes reduces consumption and thereby the overall tax take.IE charge much less tax sell much more fuel get much more tax in the form of more fuel sold and by creating more economic growth in the economy by increasing disposable incomes.In which case as we all know it is the CO2 global warmist nazis and their commy/green cronies who are standing in the way of such common sense.
The thing is the fuel tax take is reducing due to more efficient vehicles - govts own numbers show this and with the advent of electric cars its only going one way ditto ICE getting more and more efficient + older cars taken off the road as they are at end of economic life. While it is equally obvious that such ridiculously high fuel taxes reduces consumption and thereby the overall tax take.IE charge much less tax sell much more fuel get much more tax in the form of more fuel sold and by creating more economic growth in the economy by increasing disposable incomes.In which case as we all know it is the CO2 global warmist nazis and their commy/green cronies who are standing in the way of such common sense.
Duty is never going to decrease unless it is replaced by road pricing which will be the next step - as early Electric vehicles adopters take advantage of the tax system it will not be too long before this happens OR they up VED hugely on these cars to mitigate the fall.
I raise the point again if you took away the Fuel duty - IIRC its about £30billion a year to the taxman just what tax would you increase ? To simply say economic output would increase to cover it is the wooly answer it may do but how much extra GDP would be required to achieve that??also as that form of tax take is delayed v instant collection at fuel stations the Gpvt borrowing would spiral by £50-60billion due to the lag between GDP increase and expected corporation tax revenue increase.
The additional interest alone on this would be in the order of £400-600m a year that could give NHS nurses a 1% payrise for example.
Welshbeef said:
XJ Flyer said:
Firstly the oil companies would be justified in saying that that the market is willing to stand the type of present prices so if the government wants to see lower prices then cut the road fuel duty and VAT.
While it is equally obvious that such ridiculously high fuel taxes reduces consumption and thereby the overall tax take.IE charge much less tax sell much more fuel get much more tax in the form of more fuel sold and by creating more economic growth in the economy by increasing disposable incomes.In which case as we all know it is the CO2 global warmist nazis and their commy/green cronies who are standing in the way of such common sense.
The thing is the fuel tax take is reducing due to more efficient vehicles - govts own numbers show this and with the advent of electric cars its only going one way ditto ICE getting more and more efficient + older cars taken off the road as they are at end of economic life. While it is equally obvious that such ridiculously high fuel taxes reduces consumption and thereby the overall tax take.IE charge much less tax sell much more fuel get much more tax in the form of more fuel sold and by creating more economic growth in the economy by increasing disposable incomes.In which case as we all know it is the CO2 global warmist nazis and their commy/green cronies who are standing in the way of such common sense.
Duty is never going to decrease unless it is replaced by road pricing which will be the next step - as early Electric vehicles adopters take advantage of the tax system it will not be too long before this happens OR they up VED hugely on these cars to mitigate the fall.
I raise the point again if you took away the Fuel duty - IIRC its about £30billion a year to the taxman just what tax would you increase ? To simply say economic output would increase to cover it is the wooly answer it may do but how much extra GDP would be required to achieve that??also as that form of tax take is delayed v instant collection at fuel stations the Gpvt borrowing would spiral by £50-60billion due to the lag between GDP increase and expected corporation tax revenue increase.
The additional interest alone on this would be in the order of £400-600m a year that could give NHS nurses a 1% payrise for example.
As I said the tax take from road fuel is actually falling because just like if the oil companies had over priced the product to such a degree the stuff just isn't selling in sufficient quantitities.In which case you're just fooling yourself if you really think that keeping an unviably high nominal tax rate on fuel translates into more more tax for services.The fact that people are downsizing into more fuel friendly cars,or doing much less mileage with the larger engined cars which they also have,as in my case,is just a symptom of that.It is equally obvious that for my plan to work we'd need to forget all about the CO2 global warmist agenda in which it is obvious that road fuel duty is being seen as a punitive deterrent against freedom of car use with the tax take plunging as a result.
While in general most of those putting up the type of non existent obstacles which you've described are usually actually doing so on the basis of support for that eco nazi agenda and nothing whatsoever to do with paying for nurses.The fact is the tax take would do just fine if we cut the tax on all road fuel to at least the same rate as LPG preferably less in all cases.
Although I can just hear the eco nazis and their rail transport investor cronies objecting to that even now.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 7th November 14:57
k. XJFLYER hijacks another thread. 
joe_90 said:
Saw a 120.9 today, its practically free!!.
/Thinks back when I started driving, it was practically free
It's 118.9 at one place locally - they've been at 119.9 for a couple of weeks now. A couple of other places are at 119.9 this morning I noticed around / on the A4 Reading to Maidenhead.../Thinks back when I started driving, it was practically free
unrepentant said:
We've been in the $3.50 - $3.90 range for most of this year until the recent drop to the $2.80 range. It's not unusual to see a 10% hike or drop overnight.
Was in Orlando in August and I'm sure it was around $3.30 then. One thing I noticed was how much it varied - gas stations opposite each other would have significantly different prices.Anyway, I wonder what the overall difference is in spending on fuel - in the US with your typical family driving a minivan or large SUV doing about 15MPG (US) vs UK where their in a diesel something or other doing 40+?
Plus distances are far greater there. My next-door neighbour stayed with family in some Godforsaken mid-west backwater during the summer. The man of the house was driving a massive pick-up that did 8MPG and doing 60K miles per year in it. His missus had a RangeRover "for its economy"!
Sheepshanks said:
unrepentant said:
We've been in the $3.50 - $3.90 range for most of this year until the recent drop to the $2.80 range. It's not unusual to see a 10% hike or drop overnight.
Was in Orlando in August and I'm sure it was around $3.30 then. One thing I noticed was how much it varied - gas stations opposite each other would have significantly different prices.Anyway, I wonder what the overall difference is in spending on fuel - in the US with your typical family driving a minivan or large SUV doing about 15MPG (US) vs UK where their in a diesel something or other doing 40+?
Plus distances are far greater there. My next-door neighbour stayed with family in some Godforsaken mid-west backwater during the summer. The man of the house was driving a massive pick-up that did 8MPG and doing 60K miles per year in it. His missus had a RangeRover "for its economy"!
Sheepshanks said:
unrepentant said:
We've been in the $3.50 - $3.90 range for most of this year until the recent drop to the $2.80 range. It's not unusual to see a 10% hike or drop overnight.
Was in Orlando in August and I'm sure it was around $3.30 then. One thing I noticed was how much it varied - gas stations opposite each other would have significantly different prices.Anyway, I wonder what the overall difference is in spending on fuel - in the US with your typical family driving a minivan or large SUV doing about 15MPG (US) vs UK where their in a diesel something or other doing 40+?
Plus distances are far greater there. My next-door neighbour stayed with family in some Godforsaken mid-west backwater during the summer. The man of the house was driving a massive pick-up that did 8MPG and doing 60K miles per year in it. His missus had a RangeRover "for its economy"!
Jimbeaux said:
Not sure about mileage of that truck. One of my everyday drivers ia a 2004 Ford F-150 Lariat with a 5.4L V8 that gets 21 MPG. Somewhat better than 8.
I hire an SUV usually, although had a mini-van this year and mid-teens MPG is doing well. And that's on the trip computer, which presumably are as optimistic there as they are here.We had a V8 AWD Durango from out of state one year and that did 12MPG. So I didn't doubt the 8.
I average 14MPG UK out of my Durango on my daily commute. It's ten miles each way half of which is town driving, the other half dual carriageway.
On a run it happily does 21/22.
My Mustang averages 18MPG for the same commute and does 27/28 on a run.
Unrep and Jimbeaux,
Do they still put gas prices up at holiday weekends to make a bit more money from people travelling to visit friends/relatives?
On a run it happily does 21/22.
My Mustang averages 18MPG for the same commute and does 27/28 on a run.
Unrep and Jimbeaux,
Do they still put gas prices up at holiday weekends to make a bit more money from people travelling to visit friends/relatives?
XJ Flyer said:
Firstly I think you've under estimated the issue which I raised concerning price it less sell a lot more of it thereby mitigating any potential shortfall in actual tax take.The knock on effects in disposable incomes and economic growth being a bonus.The 'combination' of which would create a much higher tax take not less.
As I said the tax take from road fuel is actually falling because just like if the oil companies had over priced the product to such a degree the stuff just isn't selling in sufficient quantitities.In which case you're just fooling yourself if you really think that keeping an unviably high nominal tax rate on fuel translates into more more tax for services.The fact that people are downsizing into more fuel friendly cars,or doing much less mileage with the larger engined cars which they also have,as in my case,is just a symptom of that.It is equally obvious that for my plan to work we'd need to forget all about the CO2 global warmist agenda in which it is obvious that road fuel duty is being seen as a punitive deterrent against freedom of car use with the tax take plunging as a result.
While in general most of those putting up the type of non existent obstacles which you've described are usually actually doing so on the basis of support for that eco nazi agenda and nothing whatsoever to do with paying for nurses.The fact is the tax take would do just fine if we cut the tax on all road fuel to at least the same rate as LPG preferably less in all cases.
Although I can just hear the eco nazis and their rail transport investor cronies objecting to that even now.
No I do not As I said the tax take from road fuel is actually falling because just like if the oil companies had over priced the product to such a degree the stuff just isn't selling in sufficient quantitities.In which case you're just fooling yourself if you really think that keeping an unviably high nominal tax rate on fuel translates into more more tax for services.The fact that people are downsizing into more fuel friendly cars,or doing much less mileage with the larger engined cars which they also have,as in my case,is just a symptom of that.It is equally obvious that for my plan to work we'd need to forget all about the CO2 global warmist agenda in which it is obvious that road fuel duty is being seen as a punitive deterrent against freedom of car use with the tax take plunging as a result.
While in general most of those putting up the type of non existent obstacles which you've described are usually actually doing so on the basis of support for that eco nazi agenda and nothing whatsoever to do with paying for nurses.The fact is the tax take would do just fine if we cut the tax on all road fuel to at least the same rate as LPG preferably less in all cases.
Although I can just hear the eco nazis and their rail transport investor cronies objecting to that even now.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 7th November 14:57
Can you clearly identify the extra GDP which will create £30billion in extra tax revenues? No its possible but totally unknown what is known is the little fact that corporation tax will be paid up to 17 months later than when its earnt v pay at pumps.
So as I stated the interest charge will be an additional deficit so what covers this gap? What services get cut why don't you want to pay Nurses more.
Roo said:
I average 14MPG UK out of my Durango on my daily commute. It's ten miles each way half of which is town driving, the other half dual carriageway.
On a run it happily does 21/22.
My Mustang averages 18MPG for the same commute and does 27/28 on a run.
Unrep and Jimbeaux,
Do they still put gas prices up at holiday weekends to make a bit more money from people travelling to visit friends/relatives?
They do; it is claimed to be an increase due to what will be a strain upon supply. We know that is poo poo. What many do not realize is that the stations make very little, if any profit from gasoline sales; they make their money from purchases made in the small stores attached.On a run it happily does 21/22.
My Mustang averages 18MPG for the same commute and does 27/28 on a run.
Unrep and Jimbeaux,
Do they still put gas prices up at holiday weekends to make a bit more money from people travelling to visit friends/relatives?
Jimbeaux said:
They do; it is claimed to be an increase due to what will be a strain upon supply. We know that is poo poo. What many do not realize is that the stations make very little, if any profit from gasoline sales; they make their money from purchases made in the small stores attached.
Same over here. Fuel profit for the retailer is in pence per litre.It's why they're reluctant to install pay at pump here as no-one would go in the shop.
Roo said:
Jimbeaux said:
They do; it is claimed to be an increase due to what will be a strain upon supply. We know that is poo poo. What many do not realize is that the stations make very little, if any profit from gasoline sales; they make their money from purchases made in the small stores attached.
Same over here. Fuel profit for the retailer is in pence per litre.It's why they're reluctant to install pay at pump here as no-one would go in the shop.
Welshbeef said:
XJ Flyer said:
Firstly I think you've under estimated the issue which I raised concerning price it less sell a lot more of it thereby mitigating any potential shortfall in actual tax take.The knock on effects in disposable incomes and economic growth being a bonus.The 'combination' of which would create a much higher tax take not less.
As I said the tax take from road fuel is actually falling because just like if the oil companies had over priced the product to such a degree the stuff just isn't selling in sufficient quantitities.In which case you're just fooling yourself if you really think that keeping an unviably high nominal tax rate on fuel translates into more more tax for services.The fact that people are downsizing into more fuel friendly cars,or doing much less mileage with the larger engined cars which they also have,as in my case,is just a symptom of that.It is equally obvious that for my plan to work we'd need to forget all about the CO2 global warmist agenda in which it is obvious that road fuel duty is being seen as a punitive deterrent against freedom of car use with the tax take plunging as a result.
While in general most of those putting up the type of non existent obstacles which you've described are usually actually doing so on the basis of support for that eco nazi agenda and nothing whatsoever to do with paying for nurses.The fact is the tax take would do just fine if we cut the tax on all road fuel to at least the same rate as LPG preferably less in all cases.
Although I can just hear the eco nazis and their rail transport investor cronies objecting to that even now.
No I do not As I said the tax take from road fuel is actually falling because just like if the oil companies had over priced the product to such a degree the stuff just isn't selling in sufficient quantitities.In which case you're just fooling yourself if you really think that keeping an unviably high nominal tax rate on fuel translates into more more tax for services.The fact that people are downsizing into more fuel friendly cars,or doing much less mileage with the larger engined cars which they also have,as in my case,is just a symptom of that.It is equally obvious that for my plan to work we'd need to forget all about the CO2 global warmist agenda in which it is obvious that road fuel duty is being seen as a punitive deterrent against freedom of car use with the tax take plunging as a result.
While in general most of those putting up the type of non existent obstacles which you've described are usually actually doing so on the basis of support for that eco nazi agenda and nothing whatsoever to do with paying for nurses.The fact is the tax take would do just fine if we cut the tax on all road fuel to at least the same rate as LPG preferably less in all cases.
Although I can just hear the eco nazis and their rail transport investor cronies objecting to that even now.
Edited by XJ Flyer on Friday 7th November 14:57
Can you clearly identify the extra GDP which will create £30billion in extra tax revenues? No its possible but totally unknown what is known is the little fact that corporation tax will be paid up to 17 months later than when its earnt v pay at pumps.
So as I stated the interest charge will be an additional deficit so what covers this gap? What services get cut why don't you want to pay Nurses more.
I also clearly identified the fact that in view of the above it would be better to cut the tax on fuel in order to increase sales and therefore tax raised.In addition to cutting the tax sufficiently to allow more disposable income for people to spend in the economy.More spending means more employment which means more income tax take.
I notice that you seem to have conveniently missed all that.In view of which,so far,I'm calling your argument yet more eco propaganda and unwarranted argument in support of continuing with creating obstacles to large scale road fuel tax cuts,for typically unjustifiable eco reasons not economic ones.
Roo said:
Jimbeaux said:
They do; it is claimed to be an increase due to what will be a strain upon supply. We know that is poo poo. What many do not realize is that the stations make very little, if any profit from gasoline sales; they make their money from purchases made in the small stores attached.
Same over here. Fuel profit for the retailer is in pence per litre.In all cases the emphasis mostly being on using as little amount of fuel as possible in an effort to circumvent the ridiculous taxation issue.
Thereby creating the worst of all worlds situation in terms of revenues for the fuel producers and retailers and ironically the users of the ever decreasing tax take.
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