The Gender Unicorn

[FlyingMeeces]

J4CKO said:

First time I have heard that one, had to look it up ! its definition doesnt sound insulting, just seems to be the opposite of trans ?

Is it a loaded term or like LGBT people calling straight folk breeders or something ?

He's whining for political effect.

It isn't a loaded term at all - it literally means not trans, nothing else.

[daddy cool]

FlyingMeeces said:

WinstonWolf said:

Cisgender is an insulting term. You don't like certain terms, I don't like that one. Just refer to me as normal please.

Okeydokey, what is your preferred term for people who are not trans, when that is what I am trying to express?

As another fellow "normal", its not really our responsibility to come up with a name for people that feel that the term "normal" doesnt apply to them. Im sure they can label themselves something.

[WinstonWolf]

FlyingMeeces said:

J4CKO said:

First time I have heard that one, had to look it up ! its definition doesnt sound insulting, just seems to be the opposite of trans ?

Is it a loaded term or like LGBT people calling straight folk breeders or something ?

He's whining for political effect.

It isn't a loaded term at all - it literally means not trans, nothing else.

I'll be the judge of that. I find it insulting, if you want people to refer to you in a certain way it's only reasonable to afford them the same courtesy.

[FredClogs]

FlyingMeeces said:

J4CKO said:

First time I have heard that one, had to look it up ! its definition doesnt sound insulting, just seems to be the opposite of trans ?

Is it a loaded term or like LGBT people calling straight folk breeders or something ?

He's whining for political effect.

It isn't a loaded term at all - it literally means not trans, nothing else.

Winston Wolf is one of those easily offended types... But the point stands doesn't it?

Surely the ideal we want to get to is that everyone can achieve some sort of personal actualisation where their inner self is what is projected and accepted by the wider community - isn't that what we all want, to just be ourselves and be accepted for it? Isn't that what adolescence is all about?

If that is the case I don't really see how creating more labels for anyone helps.

[jonby]

daddy cool said:

FlyingMeeces said:

WinstonWolf said:

Cisgender is an insulting term. You don't like certain terms, I don't like that one. Just refer to me as normal please.

Okeydokey, what is your preferred term for people who are not trans, when that is what I am trying to express?

As another fellow "normal", its not really our responsibility to come up with a name for people that feel that the term "normal" doesnt apply to them. Im sure they can label themselves something.

There are huge numbers of people of course who are understandably offended with the label of 'not normal', which by definition is what they are being labelled if the 'norm' (in the statistical sense) is referred to as 'normal'. It is certainly a very difficult area

[jonby]

FredClogs said:

It debases what it means to be human to suggest 7billion people should fit precisely into 1 of 2 binary genders. That's a fact. Its also factually nonsense, of course our biology and psychology is incredibly complex so I doubt very much that it's black and white.

That said we should also be pragmatic and as a species we should be looking at ways of improving and expanding our culture and understanding to give clarity, not confusion.

And I for one am confused by all this.

difficult to argue with any of that (not that I was looking to !)

[Lucas CAV]

FlyingMeeces said:

As I said in my very first post on this thread, I'm not debating whether trans men and women are men and women. Funnily enough I haven't much appetite for it.

<b>I'm male - not 'calling myself'<\b> and presumably so are you. There exist people who know, just as certainly as we know we're blokes, that they are neither male nor female but something else. I'm not one of those people.

I'm actually not well read enough on gender theory to explain better, so let's leave it at, in this world the vast, vast majority are men or women - and that is how it is, it's not gonna change, in all the changes society has been through in however many tens of thousands of years that's been a constant and is a constant even in isolated communities all round the planet. And among that number are what we now in English call trans people.

Short version: I don't need to unpick gender, cheers, mine is nice and straightforward. But it'd be lovely if those few people whose gender is not binary were treated a bit more like human beings, in general terms.

Genuinely confused about the statement in bold. You're saying that you have become a male by simply stating it as fact?

Edited by Lucas CAV on Tuesday 16th August 13:11

[Digga]

FredClogs said:

If that is the case I don't really see how creating more labels for anyone helps.

I totally agree. It seems rather daft to invent new pigeonholes for people that do not fit existing ones, rather than acknowledging the fairly obvious fact that whilst pigeons might fit in pigeonholes, people, humans do not.

[Johnnytheboy]

This is PH: can't we find a bit of motoring terminology to denote "normal"?

Full fat?

Vanilla?

Stock?

[Lucas CAV]

Johnnytheboy said:

This is PH: can't we find a bit of motoring terminology to denote "normal"?

Full fat?

Vanilla?

Stock?

About as funny as mx5 tbh...

[mph1977]

Ultuous said:

230TE said:

I'm not sure why it has a boiled sweet glued to its crotch

At first glance I was more confused/ concerned as to why a hippopotamus would have a dildo stuck to it's head!

i think it's supposed to be a double helix ...

[mph1977]

J4CKO said:

First time I have heard that one, had to look it up ! its definition doesnt sound insulting, just seems to be the opposite of trans ?

Is it a loaded term or like LGBT people calling straight folk breeders or something ?

it;s not a loaded term , it's the adoption of the chemistry term 'cis' meaning denoting or relating to a molecular structure in which two particular atoms or groups lie on the same side of a given plane in the molecule, in particular denoting an isomer in which substituents at opposite ends of a carbon–carbon double bond are on the same side of the bond.

because chemistry uses 'trans' and 'cis' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis%E2%80%93trans_is...

It's only 'insulting' to those who believe that those who aren't cisgender heterosexuals are 'inferior' or 'abnormal'... in other word s those who have such little in the way of insight and self realisation they cannot concieve a normal outside the stories alleged told by their sky fairy

[WinstonWolf]

mph1977 said:

J4CKO said:

First time I have heard that one, had to look it up ! its definition doesnt sound insulting, just seems to be the opposite of trans ?

Is it a loaded term or like LGBT people calling straight folk breeders or something ?

it;s not a loaded term , it's the adoption of the chemistry term 'cis' meaning denoting or relating to a molecular structure in which two particular atoms or groups lie on the same side of a given plane in the molecule, in particular denoting an isomer in which substituents at opposite ends of a carbon–carbon double bond are on the same side of the bond.

because chemistry uses 'trans' and 'cis' https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cis%E2%80%93trans_is...

It's only 'insulting' to those who believe that those who aren't cisgender heterosexuals are 'inferior' or 'abnormal'... in other word s those who have such little in the way of insight and self realisation they cannot concieve a normal outside the stories alleged told by their sky fairy

There are no sky fairies, sorry to break this to you.

Normal has worked just fine for generations, if you're different and want to use other terms to refer to yourself that's fine, but that doesn't give you the right to refer to the rest of us in terms that we find insulting.

You can't have it both ways, you either respect other peoples wishes or you don't.

[FredClogs]

Also, giving it some thought...

I'm not cultural historian, anthropologist or sociologist with a Phd in gender history...

But...

Strikes me from what I know of human behaviour through history this is by no means new to us, seems to be that as far back as human records to we've had and celebrated a fairly androgenous look and culture as well as other lifestyles, from Platonic love to the Spandau Ballet barely a cultural zeitgeist has been and gone which doesn't depict a celebration of a grey area in gender and sexuality. Eunuchs, long hair, punk rock, romantics, new romantics, renaissance man even Jesus Christ himself... If I had to offer a hypothesis I'd say a dangerous mix of rather perverted religious ideals and a century and a half of industrialised war fare have created an image of gender that is nit a reflection of us but a reflection of what our corrupted system of nation states requires from us...

Seems to me in this era of instant opinions and excessive intellectual scrutiny we're just a bit to bothered in what other people do and feel, fk knows why but how about we just all give less fks about what other people say and do and chill the fk out ?

I'm still not sure the purple unicorn is helping though.

[TeamD]

Whether this adds to this discussion or not I have a degree of sympathy for those offended by such weirdo words as cisgender. Just because someone of different sexuality etc likes to have a box to put themselves in it doesn't mean that rest of us do, and furthermore, might find it annoying to be pigeonholed as such.

[Digga]

FredClogs said:

I'm still not sure the purple unicorn is helping though.

Does it help to think of it as a violet Rhinostrihorse?

[FlyingMeeces]

Digga said:

FredClogs said:

I'm still not sure the purple unicorn is helping though.

Does it help to think of it as a violet Rhinostrihorse?

Cuddly triceratops?
I bet it craps rainbows too.

[usbooz]

TeamD said:

Whether this adds to this discussion or not I have a degree of sympathy for those offended by such weirdo words as cisgender. Just because someone of different sexuality etc likes to have a box to put themselves in it doesn't mean that rest of us do, and furthermore, might find it annoying to be pigeonholed as such.

Did you stop to consider if trans people actually came up with the terminology? 99% of the labels applied to the trans community originated from cisgender people, Trans and Transgender are about the only two terms trans people put up with. Shemale, tranny, he-she, sex change, gender reassignment, transsexual and even just adding ed to the end of transgender to make transgendered are all words used by Cisgender media, public and even government and medical profession to describe trans people for which they are generally not comfortable with.

Laughably high are the chances that it was cisgender people who came up with cis, after all its Latin in origin. So sorry if as a cis person you don't like the word, but given it is only applied to you when trying to have a discussion where using it is totally appropriate and needed for clarity, as opposed to trans people who are forced to use trans and transgender regularly in order to just go about their lives in the cis assumed world

Edited by usbooz on Tuesday 16th August 16:38

[Mark Benson]

FredClogs said:

FlyingMeeces said:

J4CKO said:

First time I have heard that one, had to look it up ! its definition doesnt sound insulting, just seems to be the opposite of trans ?

Is it a loaded term or like LGBT people calling straight folk breeders or something ?

He's whining for political effect.

It isn't a loaded term at all - it literally means not trans, nothing else.

Winston Wolf is one of those easily offended types... But the point stands doesn't it?

Surely the ideal we want to get to is that everyone can achieve some sort of personal actualisation where their inner self is what is projected and accepted by the wider community - isn't that what we all want, to just be ourselves and be accepted for it? Isn't that what adolescence is all about?

If that is the case I don't really see how creating more labels for anyone helps.

Referring to the bit I bolded (emboldened?); Not these days, my (16 year old) niece is currently 'gender fluid' after being heaven knows how many other labels in the last 12 months or so. Her irritating friends are all the same, male and female, none (currently) identify as cis-gendered.

She's nothing of the sort, she's as cis as I am. But that's just not what the cool kids are doing at the moment, what we called experimenting and kept behind closed doors, they shout from the rooftops (or at least on social media) and this month gender fluidity is in. Got to be a member of a 'special' group when you're a special snowflake and unique and special in your specialness.

Which of course does nothing for those that genuinely are wrestling with those kind of issues but strident campaigners can point to a big increase in non-cis self-identifiers and claim that ever since they made up some lovely new names, all the previously oppressed non-cis people are now freed from tyranny.

When in fact all that's happened is that it's become just another trend for teens to acquire for a while then drop when they grow up.

[TeamD]

usbooz said:

Did you stop to consider if trans people actually came up with the terminology? 99% of the labels applied to the trans community originated from cisgender people, Trans and Transgender are about the only two terms trans people put up with. Shemale, tranny, he-she, sex change, gender reassignment, transsexual and even just adding ed to the end of transgender to make transgendered are all words used by Cisgender media, public and even government and medical profession to describe trans people for which they are generally not comfortable with.

Laughably high are the chances that it was cisgender people who came up with cis, after all its Latin in origin. So sorry if as a cis person you don't like the word, but given it is only applied to you when trying to have a discussion where using it is totally appropriate and needed for clarity, as opposed to trans people who are forced to use trans and transgender regularly in order to just go about their lives in the cis assumed world

You come across as a very angry person rather like a gay chap I knew once who thought it was appropriate to refer to people like me as "uptight hets"

Edited by TeamD on Tuesday 16th August 16:53