2nd Referendum please - I don't like how that one panned out

[wc98]

jonnyb said:

Just a couple more thoughts in this then I will leave it.

The lurch to the right has left the ultra right wing, xenophobic morons of this country feeling empowered. They feel their anti-immigration, anti-foreigner argument is gaining traction.

Let me expand, why I feel this way.

A couple of years ago I flew a group of school children to Poland for a visit Aushwitz. Kindly they invited the crew along.
And standing there, surrounded by snow, on a bitterly cold afternoon. Looking at gas chambers, standing in the very spot where selection took place. Knowing that where I stood millions went to their deaths. Men, women, children. Their only crime was to be different.

To say it affected me greatly would be an understatement.

I asked myself how could this happen? How could a civilised country like Germany end up at the gates of Aushwitz?

So I went home and read. It starts small, intolerance, prejudice. Then that intolerance finds a voice, the argument that what has happened to you is not your fault it's there's gains traction. It snowballs. In Germany it lead to national socialism and the gas chambers.

Now I am no way saying that is what's going to happen here. However, that intolerance and bigotry finding its voice, that has happened, and is happening again all over Europe. That leaves me worried for my future, and more importantly that of my children.

you know how that happened ? because an autocratic dictatorship had all the power. the direction the eu is now headed might seem a good idea to some. what happens in the future when the commission is made up of different people, with different ideas , some of which we might find distasteful or downright dangerous ? who polices the dictatorship.

anyone reading the following that still wishes the uk to be a member of the uk is a complete fruitloop imo . i think this document shows just how important democracy really is.
Brussels, 28/06/2016
160628_02_en
FOREWORD

“Shared Vision, Common Action: A Stronger Europe”. A Global Strategy for the European Union’s Foreign and Security Policy
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/2016/160628_...

[Soov535]

Puggit said:

Ruling party in Poland are calling for massive reforms in Europe, followed by a 2nd UK referendum. Of course, the Polish reforms would kill the superstate idea and require that EU law only counts for pan-EU matters, and that each country maintains sovereignty.

I would vote for that, but as it won't happen, there's no need!

100%.

[mattmurdock]

wc98 said:

you know how that happened ? because an autocratic dictatorship had all the power. the direction the eu is now headed might seem a good idea to some. what happens in the future when the commission is made up of different people, with different ideas , some of which we might find distasteful or downright dangerous ? who polices the dictatorship.

anyone reading the following that still wishes the uk to be a member of the uk is a complete fruitloop imo . i think this document shows just how important democracy really is.
Brussels, 28/06/2016
160628_02_en
FOREWORD

“Shared Vision, Common Action: A Stronger Europe”. A Global Strategy for the European Union’s Foreign and Security Policy
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/2016/160628_...

A document which makes it clear all member nations will retain full sovereignty over their military assets?

What exactly is that document proposing that concerns you so much?

[jjlynn27]

That document is bandied as a indisputable proof of complete assimilation, 'fourth Reich' if you will. I asked twice if someone read the document, as from parts on Reuters, to me, doesn't sound anything like it.

[Puggit]

jjlynn27 said:

That document is bandied as a indisputable proof of complete assimilation, 'fourth Reich' if you will. I asked twice if someone read the document, as from parts on Reuters, to me, doesn't sound anything like it.

Honestly, I've tried - and I can't. Eurospeak is just horrible.

[turbobloke]

jonnyb said:

However, that intolerance and bigotry finding its voice, that has happened, and is happening again all over Europe.

Because centrist and centre-left parties and the EU in general are not listening, they're telling people with rational not racist concerns about the level of immigration that they are in fact racist and thick as well. Surely can you can see that far-left and far-right groups gain traction within that kind of centre-left mindset of 'we know best and will tell you how to think to be bien pensant like us' prevailing. So we get Tsipras in Greece and Le Pen in France.

EU policy and political parties that are totally out of touch and cocooned in their ideological bubbles are setting the context for what you describe. After that, it's still a bad decision for anyone to verbally abuse or attack anyone else, for any reason (on the physical attack side, outside the usual self-defence or war zone scenarios).

[The Don of Croy]

jonnyb said:

...So I went home and read. It starts small, intolerance, prejudice. Then that intolerance finds a voice, the argument that what has happened to you is not your fault it's there's gains traction. It snowballs. In Germany it lead to national socialism and the gas chambers.

Now I am no way saying that is what's going to happen here. However, that intolerance and bigotry finding its voice, that has happened, and is happening again all over Europe. That leaves me worried for my future, and more importantly that of my children...

Did you also read about the settlement after WW1 ?

We were taught (albeit 40 odd years ago) that a large part of problem was the terms of the Versailles Treaty and it's seeming injustice to Germany, thus fostering a lingering feeling of being hard-done-by. Is there a parallel to the UK in 2016? Apart from our football team?

[jonnyb]

wc98 said:

jonnyb said:

Just a couple more thoughts in this then I will leave it.

The lurch to the right has left the ultra right wing, xenophobic morons of this country feeling empowered. They feel their anti-immigration, anti-foreigner argument is gaining traction.

Let me expand, why I feel this way.

A couple of years ago I flew a group of school children to Poland for a visit Aushwitz. Kindly they invited the crew along.
And standing there, surrounded by snow, on a bitterly cold afternoon. Looking at gas chambers, standing in the very spot where selection took place. Knowing that where I stood millions went to their deaths. Men, women, children. Their only crime was to be different.

To say it affected me greatly would be an understatement.

I asked myself how could this happen? How could a civilised country like Germany end up at the gates of Aushwitz?

So I went home and read. It starts small, intolerance, prejudice. Then that intolerance finds a voice, the argument that what has happened to you is not your fault it's there's gains traction. It snowballs. In Germany it lead to national socialism and the gas chambers.

Now I am no way saying that is what's going to happen here. However, that intolerance and bigotry finding its voice, that has happened, and is happening again all over Europe. That leaves me worried for my future, and more importantly that of my children.

you know how that happened ? because an autocratic dictatorship had all the power. the direction the eu is now headed might seem a good idea to some. what happens in the future when the commission is made up of different people, with different ideas , some of which we might find distasteful or downright dangerous ? who polices the dictatorship.

anyone reading the following that still wishes the uk to be a member of the uk is a complete fruitloop imo . i think this document shows just how important democracy really is.
Brussels, 28/06/2016
160628_02_en
FOREWORD

“Shared Vision, Common Action: A Stronger Europe”. A Global Strategy for the European Union’s Foreign and Security Policy
http://eeas.europa.eu/statements-eeas/2016/160628_...

Not really, the dictatorship was a result not a cause.

Like I said, were just starting down this road. But starting we are.

[Leins]

el stovey said:

turbobloke said:

That's not how it works.

Like the Irish Lisbon treaty?

One of the differences is that Ireland is the only country in the EU which requires ratification of EU treaties by referendum. We had to have a referendum, the UK didn't. And hence why a second one had to be run, as there was no other way to allow the first to be superseded

The big problem with the first "Lisbon" referendum in Ireland was that Europe wouldn't leave us alone to make up our own minds, especially Sarkozy, effectively telling us we had to be good little Europeans and fall in line. The fact our constitution had to be altered seemed to be an inconvenience. As with most human nature, if people feel like they are being taken for granted, they react, and so the first result was very much two fingers up at all those who were deemed to be preaching at us

However, once this protest had been made, and Sarkozy told to back off, many knew a second reversing decision had to be made and that is why it's never really been worried about since

I, for one, don't see how holding a second referendum can be deemed undemocratic. With the UK result being so close, I think it could almost be viewed as being sensible to hold a second one. If the "leave" result stands, you know the first wasn't just a protest vote

[turbobloke]

Leins said:

el stovey said:

turbobloke said:

That's not how it works.

Like the Irish Lisbon treaty?

One of the differences is that Ireland is the only country in the EU which requires ratification of EU treaties by referendum. We had to have a referendum, the UK didn't. And hence why a second one had to be run, as there was no other way to allow the first to be superseded

The big problem with the first "Lisbon" referendum in Ireland was that Europe wouldn't leave us alone to make up our own minds, especially Sarkozy, effectively telling us we had to be good little Europeans and fall in line. The fact our constitution had to be altered seemed to be an inconvenience. As with most human nature, if people feel like they are being taken for granted, they react, and so the first result was very much two fingers up at all those who were deemed to be preaching at us

However, once this protest had been made, and Sarkozy told to back off, many knew a second reversing decision had to be made and that is why it's never really been worried about since

I, for one, don't see how holding a second referendum can be deemed undemocratic. With the UK result being so close, I think it could almost be viewed as being sensible to hold a second one. If the "leave" result stands, you know the first wasn't just a protest vote

The UK is different, there doesn't have to be a second referendum and the reasons for voting for Remain as well as Leave are irrelevant, it's a binary choice and a choice was made with a decent 4% margin. Although A50 hasn't yet been invoked, the conequences so-to-speak are already being implemented as Cameron advised in the Commons.

[johnxjsc1985]

the only way we will have a second referendum is if the EU gives way and makes us an offer to stay .
over 17 million people voted to leave 1.5 million more than remain that's how Referendum's work.
The markets are well up today as they were yesterday .

[turbobloke]

10 hours ago approx in the Independent:

Dismissing the petition, Prime Minister's spokesperson says another vote is 'not remotely on the cards'

[jjlynn27]

Not sure that this thread can't be closed. Cameron was very clear; no 2nd ref. Merkel today dismissed even possibility, or at least that's how I understood it, of staying in the EU.

[turbobloke]

jjlynn27 said:

Not sure that this thread can't be closed. Cameron was very clear; no 2nd ref. Merkel today dismissed even possibility, or at least that's how I understood it, of staying in the EU.

Agreed but some of the people on the wrong side of the result will want to dream out loud.

[Leins]

turbobloke said:

The UK is different, there doesn't have to be a second referendum and the reasons for voting for Remain as well as Leave are irrelevant, it's a binary choice and a choice was made with a decent 4% margin. Although A50 hasn't yet been invoked, the conequences so-to-speak are already being implemented as Cameron advised in the Commons.

There didn't have to be a second referendum in Ireland either, although the ramifications of not voting in the Lisbon Treaty would probably have been quite severe. However, as I mentioned, the generally held view was that a significant portion of the 'No' vote was only as a temporary protest, and this showed itself as being true on the second vote

Unless I'm mistaken, what you have in the UK referendum is more "advisory" in nature so, playing Devil's advocate to some degree, what is the harm in asking the opinion of all again? Especially now that there has been further clarity to the situation

[lionelf]

turbobloke said:

10 hours ago approx in the Independent:

Dismissing the petition, Prime Minister's spokesperson says another vote is 'not remotely on the cards'

That's THIS Prime Minister though. Another is incoming and may not hold such an absolute view.

I'd struggle to see anyone from the Tory remain camp want to be responsible for pressing the A50 button and thus going down in history as the person who not only took us out but also possibly opened the door to the breakup of the UK.

Boris, Gove or Fox of course should have no such qualms.

A May or Hunt leadership may want to see if there's any wriggle room.

[jjlynn27]

Leins said:

There didn't have to be a second referendum in Ireland either, although the ramifications of not voting in the Lisbon Treaty would probably have been quite severe. However, as I mentioned, the generally held view was that a significant portion of the 'No' vote was only as a temporary protest, and this showed itself as being true on the second vote

Unless I'm mistaken, what you have in the UK referendum is more "advisory" in nature so, playing Devil's advocate to some degree, what is the harm in asking the opinion of all again? Especially now that there has been further clarity to the situation

Leins,

I did vote stay (if not obvious ) and would do so again, purely on the basis of economic research that I've done to the best of my ability. I think that 2nd ref is not the answer simply for couple of reasons on 'both' sides. In UK a lot of 'leave' vote would feel even more marginalized, and on the EU sides they would be thinking, are they going to have 3rd and 4th referendum? (Obviously not like that, but you get the drift).

I think everyone needs look forward how to minimise damage from this, imo. total clusterfk. And by that I primarily mean, calming markets and nicking in bud the reason for corps to relocate to EU. So far Norway option looks most promising, not sure how acceptable that is to a lot of both leave and stay voters.

[NRS]

jonnyb said:

Just a couple more thoughts in this then I will leave it.

The lurch to the right has left the ultra right wing, xenophobic morons of this country feeling empowered. They feel their anti-immigration, anti-foreigner argument is gaining traction.

Let me expand, why I feel this way.

A couple of years ago I flew a group of school children to Poland for a visit Aushwitz. Kindly they invited the crew along.
And standing there, surrounded by snow, on a bitterly cold afternoon. Looking at gas chambers, standing in the very spot where selection took place. Knowing that where I stood millions went to their deaths. Men, women, children. Their only crime was to be different.

To say it affected me greatly would be an understatement.

I asked myself how could this happen? How could a civilised country like Germany end up at the gates of Aushwitz?

So I went home and read. It starts small, intolerance, prejudice. Then that intolerance finds a voice, the argument that what has happened to you is not your fault it's there's gains traction. It snowballs. In Germany it lead to national socialism and the gas chambers.

Now I am no way saying that is what's going to happen here. However, that intolerance and bigotry finding its voice, that has happened, and is happening again all over Europe. That leaves me worried for my future, and more importantly that of my children.

I think both sides generally agree with this. It's just two (very different) solutions.

One is to carry on as previously, just with even more power centred in Europe (as shown by the memo that has come out after the referendum).

The other is to gain more control over our country and make decisions that are best for us. This for a lot of people is controlling immigration more than has been done previously so that it doesn't create too much competition for jobs/ houses etc. Probably levels of migration these days would not be a problem, but when combined with job losses due to computers/ robots it is viewed as affecting British people too much. The leave side view the EU and it's lack of listening to people as THE reason for the rise of the extreme right, not the other way around. It just so happens that the extreme right will also vote leave since they generally became extreme because they weren't listened to/ have no hope to better themselves.

If you support the EU you have to ask yourself why is there such a rise in extremism across Europe these days when the EU is getting bigger and stronger throughout time? Very very simplistically you would say that if the EU is the solution then extremism should be decreasing with the growth of the EU that we have seen.

[AJS-]

jonnyb said:

Not really, the dictatorship was a result not a cause.

Like I said, were just starting down this road. But starting we are.

How exactly?

There was a bit more to national socialism than just not liking foreigners. There's the whole autocratic centralised state part, which is really much more important and much more comparable to the modern EU than to any significant faction of the Leave campaign.

Just because Hitler used nationalism and racism as levers to gain and abuse power it doesn't mean all future concerns about sovereignty and immigration are degrees of nazism.

[turbobloke]

lionelf said:

turbobloke said:

10 hours ago approx in the Independent:

Dismissing the petition, Prime Minister's spokesperson says another vote is 'not remotely on the cards'

That's THIS Prime Minister though. Another is incoming and may not hold such an absolute view.

I'd struggle to see anyone from the Tory remain camp want to be responsible for pressing the A50 button and thus going down in history as the person who not only took us out but also possibly opened the door to the breakup of the UK.

Boris, Gove or Fox of course should have no such qualms.

A May or Hunt leadership may want to see if there's any wriggle room.

Like I said previously, dreaming out loud.

CMD has already pressed the Brexit button, the rest is project management software.

Merkel has pressed the button of no return on the EU side.

Merkel dashes hopes of a second Brexit vote: “No time for wishful thinking”

Reported in Global Investing ~2 hours ago:

https://www.biznews.com/global-investing/2016/06/2...

'Last fragile bubble popped'

(Outloud dreamers' hopes of a second vote) "were dashed yesterday by the 28 country organisation’s de facto leader, German Chancellor Angela Merkel. She is forthright: the UK must take the next logical step after citizens exercised their choice and is urging the 27 countries still in the union to move rapidly to avoid more departures."

"European Union leaders said there could be no turning back for the U.K. after Prime Minister David Cameron used his last EU summit to express disappointment at his failure to win the referendum he called on Britain’s membership."

"As of this evening, I see no way back from the Brexit vote,” German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters after the meeting in Brussels on Tuesday. “This is no time for wishful thinking, but rather to grasp reality.”

Wakey Wakey!