Are men afraid of transgender women?

[mph1977]

p2c said:

Vocal Minority said:

otolith said:

4x4Tyke said:

A famous example of what this quack thinking can lead to when imposed on children, misery, depression and suicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Tragic indeed. and what can happen if you raise someone to be a gender other than the one their brain has developed into based on what their genitalia look like.

This is a case of enforcing gender though, not the individual choosing, so not totally relevant (and understandable why it ended so badly)

However, if your points are that doing it too a child is too early, I agree entirely

Its a different situation but the enforcing of gender onto David rimmer is identical to forcing birth gender onto a trans child and often with identical results, and that is exactly what your advocating by saying "doing it to a child is too early".

Studies at the University of Washington have shown that supporting trans children results in positive outcomes with rates of depression and anxiety no higher than control groups

http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/26/transgen...

don't try and confuse the bigots with facts or lived experience of not believing yourself to be heterosexual and cisgender ... it's been a recurring theme of this thread that all this does is upset their wilfully ignorant hate filled little worlds ...

[Einion Yrth]

You will never convince anyone of anything by insulting your audience.

[mph1977]

Einion Yrth said:

You will never convince anyone of anything by insulting your audience.

there is no point trying to convince bigots of anything , except thefact they do not have the right to impose their bigotry on others and if necessary this needs to be done by sanction, whether organisational, civil law or criminal.

[davepoth]

The Daily Mail had to blow this up, using CAPITALS at strategic points so that pensioners who had misplaced their glasses would still know when to be AFRAID.

All that's going on here is that the local council is saying to kids

"You want to wear a dress? Fine; we won't judge you.".

That's not a problem to me; in fact it's entirely healthy IMO. If a boy wants to be girly or a girl wants to be boyish they should be allowed to do so without fear or derision. We shouldn't force them down a road that leads to gender reassignment before they understand what gender means, but that's not what's going on here anyway.

[Einion Yrth]

I'm out.

[mph1977]

davepoth said:

The Daily Mail had to blow this up, using CAPITALS at strategic points so that pensioners who had misplaced their glasses would still know when to be AFRAID.

All that's going on here is that the local council is saying to kids

"You want to wear a dress? Fine; we won't judge you.".

That's not a problem to me; in fact it's entirely healthy IMO. If a boy wants to be girly or a girl wants to be boyish they should be allowed to do so without fear or derision. We shouldn't force them down a road that leads to gender reassignment before they understand what gender means, but that's not what's going on here anyway.

exactly , but that challenges the dear held butbasless beliefs of the bigots so of course it will cause an uproar, becasue they can;t impose their beliefs on others ...

[Vocal Minority]

mph1977 said:

p2c said:

Vocal Minority said:

otolith said:

4x4Tyke said:

A famous example of what this quack thinking can lead to when imposed on children, misery, depression and suicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Tragic indeed. and what can happen if you raise someone to be a gender other than the one their brain has developed into based on what their genitalia look like.

This is a case of enforcing gender though, not the individual choosing, so not totally relevant (and understandable why it ended so badly)

However, if your points are that doing it too a child is too early, I agree entirely

Its a different situation but the enforcing of gender onto David rimmer is identical to forcing birth gender onto a trans child and often with identical results, and that is exactly what your advocating by saying "doing it to a child is too early".

Studies at the University of Washington have shown that supporting trans children results in positive outcomes with rates of depression and anxiety no higher than control groups

http://www.washington.edu/news/2016/02/26/transgen...

don't try and confuse the bigots with facts or lived experience of not believing yourself to be heterosexual and cisgender ... it's been a recurring theme of this thread that all this does is upset their wilfully ignorant hate filled little worlds ...

Right, so all of a sudden in the heat of internet battle, I am being branded a bigot - or ignorant. Spiffing.

I am not debating that there are some say biologically male 3 year olds out there who decide that all they want is to dress as a girl, have a girls name, be treated as female etc - and if they seem sure in that, brilliant. However, I doubt I even knew what gender was when I was that age - I just think that any infant with that level of conviction is so few and far between that they can be approached for things like education on a case by case basis.

It doesn't need a whole form. Do I think that you can only be sure of it all from the teenage years? Yes, I do.

Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 20th April 20:35

[WinstonWolf]

mph1977 said:

WinstonWolf said:

For the avoidance of any doubt, anyone using the term 'cis' marks themselves out as a massive throbber.

thankyou for once again confirming your wilfull ignorance and bigtory mr Wolf

And I'd like to express my gratitude to you for confirming you're a massive throbber

PS, I identified as a Transformer aged four.

[Jonesy23]

mph1977 said:

it will cause an uproar, becasue they can;t impose their beliefs on others ...

-Cough-

BTW, your typing at the moment suggests you're about 10 pints in so it might be time to step away from the keyboard before you say something you'll regret. Running around calling people bigots isn't a great way to act in public, especially if you're trying to convince your audience of your point of view.

[mph1977]

Jonesy23 said:

mph1977 said:

it will cause an uproar, becasue they can;t impose their beliefs on others ...

-Cough-

BTW, your typing at the moment suggests you're about 10 pints in so it might be time to step away from the keyboard before you say something you'll regret. Running around calling people bigots isn't a great way to act in public, especially if you're trying to convince your audience of your point of view.

The typical response of someone who considers the 'normal ' majority shares their view.

most minorities have given up on changing minds , instead concetrating on preventing discriminationand bigotry and ensuring that those who are questioning are supported...

there is little or no benefit wrestling pigs - they enjpy it or arguing with the wilfully ignorant as they drag it down to their level and beat you with experience ...

[Roy Lime]

I'd have said eleven.

[irocfan]

Vocal Minority said:

Right, so all of a sudden in the heat of internet battle, I am being branded a bigot - or ignorant. Spiffing.

I am not debating that there are some say biologically male 3 year olds out there who decide that all they want is to dress as a girl, have a girls name, be treated as female etc - and if they seem sure in that, brilliant. However, I doubt I even knew what gender was when I was that age - I just think that any infant with that level of conviction is so few and far between that they can be approached for things like education on a case by case basis.

It doesn't need a whole form. Do I think that you can only be sure of it all from the teenage years? Yes, I do.

Edited by Vocal Minority on Wednesday 20th April 20:35

you transphobic, cisoppressive bigot! Trying to impose your cisnormative oppression on those who want to be free!

[irocfan]

Roy Lime said:

I'd have said eleven.

nah - I'd have argued for a far more chemically induced state of mind

[p2c]

mph1977 said:

Einion Yrth said:

You will never convince anyone of anything by insulting your audience.

there is no point trying to convince bigots of anything , except thefact they do not have the right to impose their bigotry on others and if necessary this needs to be done by sanction, whether organisational, civil law or criminal.

Your probably right and there are plenty of bigots on here that wont be swayed, but there are some that are not bigots but are just ill informed and or never thought about it before, some of them have even come back to say they have been educated and changed their thoughts on the subject. Most still struggle with the subject of children and cant comprehend how a child can know and understand a concept that the majority of adults can't. I.e. that of gender identify being separate and sometimes different from physical sex.

Often it is conflated with sexuality which is completely different and doesn't manifest itself until much later, but I ask anyone with experience of children if they think their 3 yr old knows if they are a boy or a girl, if they know if their brother or sister is the opposite gender, Pretty sure my 3yr old niece is aware she has a sister and a brother and I'm pretty sure that if a child can make that distinction they can make the association that they themselves might have a conflict, they wont know what transgender is or that they are, but they can give signs that there is a problem and if that becomes a troublesome then support is the better course of action than denial and forcing them to repress, hide and become depressed etc.

So no I wont sway the bigots, but I'll try my hardest to debate with them without calling them that and hope that a few others that read the comments will understand my points and see through theirs, and for what its worth I don't think Vocal Minority is one, their comments a couple of pages back show some understanding and support.

Edited by p2c on Wednesday 20th April 20:56

[Jonesy23]

mph1977 said:

The typical response of someone who considers the 'normal ' majority shares their view.

I'm not expressing a point of view.

I'm just suggesting that your statement fits with anyone ranting at others because they think their exact point of view is the only valid one, which at this point makes it a little hypocritical as a line to take. Turning to personal abuse suggests you don't feel your argument can be accepted on its own merit which is disappointing.

[BrabusMog]

p2c, the point you made just there was so ambiguous. Who is a bigot? People that don't agree with you? I was one of those people you tried to sway but having gone away and read all the stuff you had mentioned and also just read that wiki link about the Canadian boy made to think he was a girl, all I can say is that it is pure nonesense that a 4 year old may think they are not the sex they are.

You're just as bad as the "bigots" you decry, because you have your own viewpoint and you defend it with supposition and hearsay, there is no fact to your argument, and you throw around words like "bigot" against people that simply don't agree with you.

[otolith]

Vocal Minority said:

otolith said:

4x4Tyke said:

A famous example of what this quack thinking can lead to when imposed on children, misery, depression and suicide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Tragic indeed. and what can happen if you raise someone to be a gender other than the one their brain has developed into based on what their genitalia look like.

This is a case of enforcing gender though, not the individual choosing, so not totally relevant (and understandable why it ended so badly)

However, if your points are that doing it too a child is too early, I agree entirely

We agree that a child is born with a gendered brain, not a blank canvas.

We agree that raising the child as the opposite gender is likely to be harmful to them, even if through some horrific accident (and some ill advised surgery) they have the genitalia of the opposite sex.

Do we still agree if the mismatch of genitalia and brain is down to a developmental defect which occurred in the womb, and not because someone got clumsy performing a circumcision?

[p2c]

BrabusMog said:

p2c, the point you made just there was so ambiguous. Who is a bigot? People that don't agree with you? I was one of those people you tried to sway but having gone away and read all the stuff you had mentioned and also just read that wiki link about the Canadian boy made to think he was a girl, all I can say is that it is pure nonesense that a 4 year old may think they are not the sex they are.

You're just as bad as the "bigots" you decry, because you have your own viewpoint and you defend it with supposition and hearsay, there is no fact to your argument, and you throw around words like "bigot" against people that simply don't agree with you.

Care to refute the University of Washington research? or are we staying at the bottom of the triangle?



The discussion on bigotry is one I don't like to engage in yet get dragged into by both sides of the discussion.

[BrabusMog]

Is this an elaborate hoax? What name did I call you?

[p2c]

BrabusMog said:

Is this an elaborate hoax? What name did I call you?

I suppose that is one step up the triangle but still a long way off refuting the central point which makes this essentially pointless (no pun intended)