Are men afraid of transgender women?
Discussion
p2c said:
BrabusMog said:
p2c, the point you made just there was so ambiguous. Who is a bigot? People that don't agree with you? I was one of those people you tried to sway but having gone away and read all the stuff you had mentioned and also just read that wiki link about the Canadian boy made to think he was a girl, all I can say is that it is pure nonesense that a 4 year old may think they are not the sex they are.
You're just as bad as the "bigots" you decry, because you have your own viewpoint and you defend it with supposition and hearsay, there is no fact to your argument, and you throw around words like "bigot" against people that simply don't agree with you.
Care to refute the University of Washington research? or are we staying at the bottom of the triangle?You're just as bad as the "bigots" you decry, because you have your own viewpoint and you defend it with supposition and hearsay, there is no fact to your argument, and you throw around words like "bigot" against people that simply don't agree with you.
The discussion on bigotry is one I don't like to engage in yet get dragged into by both sides of the discussion.
BrabusMog said:
Perhaps you should look at your own writing/debating style before being critical of others. Feel free to clearly and concisely make your central point and I will see how far up the triangle I can climb.
The central point is that supporting children that self identify as trans has positive outcomes with depression and anxiety on a par with control groups as supported by the University of Washington research as part of the trans youth project.p2c said:
BrabusMog said:
Perhaps you should look at your own writing/debating style before being critical of others. Feel free to clearly and concisely make your central point and I will see how far up the triangle I can climb.
The central point is that supporting children that self identify as trans has positive outcomes with depression and anxiety on a par with control groups as supported by the University of Washington research as part of the trans youth project.mph1977 said:
p2c said:
BrabusMog said:
Perhaps you should look at your own writing/debating style before being critical of others. Feel free to clearly and concisely make your central point and I will see how far up the triangle I can climb.
The central point is that supporting children that self identify as trans has positive outcomes with depression and anxiety on a par with control groups as supported by the University of Washington research as part of the trans youth project.Actually, just go away. It seems today every corner has a cracker in it. Puzzled? You should be!
Edited by dandarez on Thursday 21st April 01:10
RottenIcons said:
<Snip>
The ignorance you displayed in your 4th para was not obscured by the mudslinging at all. A child's mind is not fully formed, it never is, that is why we call them children. We have a duty to prepare that child for the time his/her mind is sufficiently formed to survive in Society with all it's temptations, pitfalls and joys. Confusion, specifically the sexual confusion foisted upon very young children is a conversion process, it is conversion by increment and degree. It is immoral and should be rounded upon at every opportunity. There is no innate gender in a child, there is largely a genetic imprint and then the parents.
(Aside: It is well known that as we form in utero we 'go through' our own species evolutionary trail physically, what is not so well known and often not appreciated is that we do a similar thing from birth but the object of that procession of evolution is the mind itself, the brain.)
I put it to you that by following your ideas that you and all those that think as you do are in fact the problem, progenitors of the vast majority of the instances of these sexual imbalances. In effect a sort of sexual predator or perhaps more accurately a parasite that infects young minds that are easily moulded to form a false paradigm.
That is my take on this subject, reading through it before pressing submit I have to admit I sound very harsh on your position and I don't wish to foist my loathing for a group of people upon you alone, so please feel free to spread my loathing of your stance amongst any and all who you know who hold your views and try not to see it as specifically targeting you alone. It's all of your ilk.
so basically you are proud that you are completely closed minded on the subject and see all LGBTQ as abominations ? and that all LGBTQ people aresexual predators ?The ignorance you displayed in your 4th para was not obscured by the mudslinging at all. A child's mind is not fully formed, it never is, that is why we call them children. We have a duty to prepare that child for the time his/her mind is sufficiently formed to survive in Society with all it's temptations, pitfalls and joys. Confusion, specifically the sexual confusion foisted upon very young children is a conversion process, it is conversion by increment and degree. It is immoral and should be rounded upon at every opportunity. There is no innate gender in a child, there is largely a genetic imprint and then the parents.
(Aside: It is well known that as we form in utero we 'go through' our own species evolutionary trail physically, what is not so well known and often not appreciated is that we do a similar thing from birth but the object of that procession of evolution is the mind itself, the brain.)
I put it to you that by following your ideas that you and all those that think as you do are in fact the problem, progenitors of the vast majority of the instances of these sexual imbalances. In effect a sort of sexual predator or perhaps more accurately a parasite that infects young minds that are easily moulded to form a false paradigm.
That is my take on this subject, reading through it before pressing submit I have to admit I sound very harsh on your position and I don't wish to foist my loathing for a group of people upon you alone, so please feel free to spread my loathing of your stance amongst any and all who you know who hold your views and try not to see it as specifically targeting you alone. It's all of your ilk.
Edited by RottenIcons on Thursday 21st April 07:31
let me get that clear , just to clarify your position and ensure you've got all your aggravating factors in a nicestraight line while you continue tospout opinion which sails very close to thelinewith regard to moving from simple insults to an incident which would by current legal guidance taking account of the Equality Act be a hate crime ...
Give it a rest mph, this is embarrassing.mph1977 said:
RottenIcons said:
<Snip>
The ignorance you displayed in your 4th para was not obscured by the mudslinging at all. A child's mind is not fully formed, it never is, that is why we call them children. We have a duty to prepare that child for the time his/her mind is sufficiently formed to survive in Society with all it's temptations, pitfalls and joys. Confusion, specifically the sexual confusion foisted upon very young children is a conversion process, it is conversion by increment and degree. It is immoral and should be rounded upon at every opportunity. There is no innate gender in a child, there is largely a genetic imprint and then the parents.
(Aside: It is well known that as we form in utero we 'go through' our own species evolutionary trail physically, what is not so well known and often not appreciated is that we do a similar thing from birth but the object of that procession of evolution is the mind itself, the brain.)
I put it to you that by following your ideas that you and all those that think as you do are in fact the problem, progenitors of the vast majority of the instances of these sexual imbalances. In effect a sort of sexual predator or perhaps more accurately a parasite that infects young minds that are easily moulded to form a false paradigm.
That is my take on this subject, reading through it before pressing submit I have to admit I sound very harsh on your position and I don't wish to foist my loathing for a group of people upon you alone, so please feel free to spread my loathing of your stance amongst any and all who you know who hold your views and try not to see it as specifically targeting you alone. It's all of your ilk.
so basically you are proud that you are completely closed minded on the subject and see all LGBTQ as abominations ? and that all LGBTQ people aresexual predators ?The ignorance you displayed in your 4th para was not obscured by the mudslinging at all. A child's mind is not fully formed, it never is, that is why we call them children. We have a duty to prepare that child for the time his/her mind is sufficiently formed to survive in Society with all it's temptations, pitfalls and joys. Confusion, specifically the sexual confusion foisted upon very young children is a conversion process, it is conversion by increment and degree. It is immoral and should be rounded upon at every opportunity. There is no innate gender in a child, there is largely a genetic imprint and then the parents.
(Aside: It is well known that as we form in utero we 'go through' our own species evolutionary trail physically, what is not so well known and often not appreciated is that we do a similar thing from birth but the object of that procession of evolution is the mind itself, the brain.)
I put it to you that by following your ideas that you and all those that think as you do are in fact the problem, progenitors of the vast majority of the instances of these sexual imbalances. In effect a sort of sexual predator or perhaps more accurately a parasite that infects young minds that are easily moulded to form a false paradigm.
That is my take on this subject, reading through it before pressing submit I have to admit I sound very harsh on your position and I don't wish to foist my loathing for a group of people upon you alone, so please feel free to spread my loathing of your stance amongst any and all who you know who hold your views and try not to see it as specifically targeting you alone. It's all of your ilk.
Edited by RottenIcons on Thursday 21st April 07:31
let me get that clear , just to clarify your position and ensure you've got all your aggravating factors in a nicestraight line while you continue tospout opinion which sails very close to thelinewith regard to moving from simple insults to an incident which would by current legal guidance taking account of the Equality Act be a hate crime ...
ks...Icons is correct, forcing four olds to consider questions of gender is akin to child abuse.
WinstonWolf said:
<snip>
Icons is correct, forcing four olds to consider questions of gender is akin to child abuse.
Unless it's adhering to heterosexual cisgender norms ? as this is overwhelmingly not the position adopted by those claiming openess and acceptance of all should be the default position ... Icons is correct, forcing four olds to consider questions of gender is akin to child abuse.
funny how in that world young people are never 'too young' to 'decide' that they are heterosexual and their gender identity is congruent with their genitals ...
Edited by mph1977 on Thursday 21st April 11:25
p2c said:
The central point is that supporting children that self identify as trans has positive outcomes with depression and anxiety on a par with control groups as supported by the University of Washington research as part of the trans youth project.
I think supporting kids as they develop is a good idea.It's well established that I'm an overly-PC-pinko-apologist - just ask Winston for details - but even I think this is taking things a bit too far.
As a four-year-old I'm sure I had no particular feelings of 'maleness' and, at various times, wanted to be a fireman, a dog or a jet fighter.
As a four-year-old I'm sure I had no particular feelings of 'maleness' and, at various times, wanted to be a fireman, a dog or a jet fighter.
TTwiggy said:
It's well established that I'm an overly-PC-pinko-apologist - just ask Winston for details - but even I think this is taking things a bit too far.
As a four-year-old I'm sure I had no particular feelings of 'maleness' and, at various times, wanted to be a fireman, a dog or a jet fighter.
and that's fine , however ti is documented that some young people do experience gender dyphoria from a a very young age As a four-year-old I'm sure I had no particular feelings of 'maleness' and, at various times, wanted to be a fireman, a dog or a jet fighter.
if someone has gender dysphoria before puberty 'intervention' is psycholgical if needed and 'transition' is 'social'
if this dysphoria continues into puberty thereare options to delay puberty through the use of medications as well as continued psychological support , but again 'transition' is entirely social ( use of preferred name and pronouns, following dress codes of the preferred gender presentation etc ) .
cross gender hormone therapy in the UK is not currently allowed or fundied until someone is16 and meets thef same diagnostic criteria as an adult
surgical transition is not allowed until someoneis18 and these now adultswill go through the same process of psychologicla evaluation and real life experience as someone wishing to transition in adulthood
mph1977 said:
RottenIcons said:
<Snip>
The ignorance you displayed in your 4th para was not obscured by the mudslinging at all. A child's mind is not fully formed, it never is, that is why we call them children. We have a duty to prepare that child for the time his/her mind is sufficiently formed to survive in Society with all it's temptations, pitfalls and joys. Confusion, specifically the sexual confusion foisted upon very young children is a conversion process, it is conversion by increment and degree. It is immoral and should be rounded upon at every opportunity. There is no innate gender in a child, there is largely a genetic imprint and then the parents.
(Aside: It is well known that as we form in utero we 'go through' our own species evolutionary trail physically, what is not so well known and often not appreciated is that we do a similar thing from birth but the object of that procession of evolution is the mind itself, the brain.)
I put it to you that by following your ideas that you and all those that think as you do are in fact the problem, progenitors of the vast majority of the instances of these sexual imbalances. In effect a sort of sexual predator or perhaps more accurately a parasite that infects young minds that are easily moulded to form a false paradigm.
That is my take on this subject, reading through it before pressing submit I have to admit I sound very harsh on your position and I don't wish to foist my loathing for a group of people upon you alone, so please feel free to spread my loathing of your stance amongst any and all who you know who hold your views and try not to see it as specifically targeting you alone. It's all of your ilk.
so basically you are proud that you are completely closed minded on the subject and see all LGBTQ as abominations ? and that all LGBTQ people aresexual predators ?The ignorance you displayed in your 4th para was not obscured by the mudslinging at all. A child's mind is not fully formed, it never is, that is why we call them children. We have a duty to prepare that child for the time his/her mind is sufficiently formed to survive in Society with all it's temptations, pitfalls and joys. Confusion, specifically the sexual confusion foisted upon very young children is a conversion process, it is conversion by increment and degree. It is immoral and should be rounded upon at every opportunity. There is no innate gender in a child, there is largely a genetic imprint and then the parents.
(Aside: It is well known that as we form in utero we 'go through' our own species evolutionary trail physically, what is not so well known and often not appreciated is that we do a similar thing from birth but the object of that procession of evolution is the mind itself, the brain.)
I put it to you that by following your ideas that you and all those that think as you do are in fact the problem, progenitors of the vast majority of the instances of these sexual imbalances. In effect a sort of sexual predator or perhaps more accurately a parasite that infects young minds that are easily moulded to form a false paradigm.
That is my take on this subject, reading through it before pressing submit I have to admit I sound very harsh on your position and I don't wish to foist my loathing for a group of people upon you alone, so please feel free to spread my loathing of your stance amongst any and all who you know who hold your views and try not to see it as specifically targeting you alone. It's all of your ilk.
Edited by RottenIcons on Thursday 21st April 07:31
let me get that clear , just to clarify your position and ensure you've got all your aggravating factors in a nicestraight line while you continue tospout opinion which sails very close to thelinewith regard to moving from simple insults to an incident which would by current legal guidance taking account of the Equality Act be a hate crime ...
A child abuser is not equal to me socially, he/she will always be my inferior and no Equality Act ever written or fantasised about can ever or will ever change that fact.
mph1977 said:
TTwiggy said:
It's well established that I'm an overly-PC-pinko-apologist - just ask Winston for details - but even I think this is taking things a bit too far.
As a four-year-old I'm sure I had no particular feelings of 'maleness' and, at various times, wanted to be a fireman, a dog or a jet fighter.
and that's fine , however ti is documented that some young people do experience gender dyphoria from a a very young age As a four-year-old I'm sure I had no particular feelings of 'maleness' and, at various times, wanted to be a fireman, a dog or a jet fighter.
if someone has gender dysphoria before puberty 'intervention' is psycholgical if needed and 'transition' is 'social'
if this dysphoria continues into puberty thereare options to delay puberty through the use of medications as well as continued psychological support , but again 'transition' is entirely social ( use of preferred name and pronouns, following dress codes of the preferred gender presentation etc ) .
cross gender hormone therapy in the UK is not currently allowed or fundied until someone is16 and meets thef same diagnostic criteria as an adult
surgical transition is not allowed until someoneis18 and these now adultswill go through the same process of psychologicla evaluation and real life experience as someone wishing to transition in adulthood
mph1977 said:
WinstonWolf said:
<snip>
Icons is correct, forcing four olds to consider questions of gender is akin to child abuse.
Unless it's adhering to heterosexual cisgender norms ? as this is overwhelmingly not the position adopted by those claiming openess and acceptance of all should be the default position ... Icons is correct, forcing four olds to consider questions of gender is akin to child abuse.
funny how in that world young people are never 'too young' to 'decide' that they are heterosexual and their gender identity is congruent with their genitals ...
Edited by mph1977 on Thursday 21st April 11:25
No one is actually making anyone choose anything at this point. I expect that the vast majority will leave it blank or just tick male for a little boy or female for a little girl. I think it's just there to make life a little easier for the rare occasion you have a littleun who seems to have unequivocally made up their mind early on that they would prefer to be the other gender (namely by prefering the clothes, toys* names etc).
- I get a bee in my bonnet about gender and toys. I blame kinder...
Dysphoria is profound, but what you describe is really a confidence issue mixed with a feeling of what we used to call 'ennui' or listlessness. Confidence, or rather, the lack of it, in a persons sexuality/appeal/attractiveness is rife in all youth, it is why 'sexting' is so prevalent, it grows into the 'Does my bum look big in this' later on too.
That state of mind that can be played upon by the disingenuous and parasitic and any/all such people found playing on that entirely natural emotion in the young are child abusers of a certain type. It may be 'hearts desire' where the person parasitising wants themselves to prove that their own issues are quite normal, there are other similar reasons but they are just excuses, it remains abuse whatever the thinking behind it.
That state of mind that can be played upon by the disingenuous and parasitic and any/all such people found playing on that entirely natural emotion in the young are child abusers of a certain type. It may be 'hearts desire' where the person parasitising wants themselves to prove that their own issues are quite normal, there are other similar reasons but they are just excuses, it remains abuse whatever the thinking behind it.
TTwiggy said:
<snip>. I guess we all have our 'inclusivity' limits and I just feel that mine are being tested by this. The tipping point for me was seeing Germaine Greer labelled a misogynist.
Greer is just an irrelevant dinosaur now, 2nd wave feminism which held some relevance in the 1960s and 1970s ( the era of 'Mad men' etc ) is irrelevant now, so to gain the oxygen of publicity she says ever more ridiculous things... the 'real woman only' exclusionary rad fems seem to forget that a notable propertion of 'real women' are absent one or more parts of the female reporductive system or otherwise unable to carry a baby to term - so does that make these unfortunate woman 'fake ' as well ...
RottenIcons said:
Dysphoria is profound, but what you describe is really a confidence issue mixed with a feeling of what we used to call 'ennui' or listlessness. Confidence, or rather, the lack of it, in a persons sexuality/appeal/attractiveness is rife in all youth, it is why 'sexting' is so prevalent, it grows into the 'Does my bum look big in this' later on too.
That state of mind that can be played upon by the disingenuous and parasitic and any/all such people found playing on that entirely natural emotion in the young are child abusers of a certain type. It may be 'hearts desire' where the person parasitising wants themselves to prove that their own issues are quite normal, there are other similar reasons but they are just excuses, it remains abuse whatever the thinking behind it.
Firstly you seem to be conflating sexuality with gender identity, they are not the same thing, so whilst sex(the act) attractiveness and attraction are completely inappropriate at the ages we are discussing and that yes sexting is far to prevalent and a symptom of unregulated internet access and somewhat bad parenting, gender identify is completely different and relates to ones sense of self, who you are and is understood by the youngest of children, a three year old will know if they are a boy or a girl and they have a mommy and daddy sister or brother, they will know the males in their family are different to the females, what they wont know is what that means in a sexual context and that's how it should be.That state of mind that can be played upon by the disingenuous and parasitic and any/all such people found playing on that entirely natural emotion in the young are child abusers of a certain type. It may be 'hearts desire' where the person parasitising wants themselves to prove that their own issues are quite normal, there are other similar reasons but they are just excuses, it remains abuse whatever the thinking behind it.
As for the abuse, firstly we are talking about children that self identify, parents who force children into a gender role against a child's identity (aka David Rimmer) would be abusive, the same though could be said of parents that force the trans child to conform to anatomical sex. There is plenty of real evidence out there of negative outcomes of this situation and some if that is mentioned in the study I posted as it was the reason for the study focusing on trans children who were supported and transitioned at a young age without denial or enforced conformance.
That study showed that supporting trans children resulted in positive outcomes and normal levels of depression and anxiety, conversely previous studies have shown denial of gender identity is detrimental and the suicide statistics back that up. Now to me that suggests the parent who is forcing conformance or is unaccepting of a trans child's identity is the abuser and those that advocate such a position are the predators
mph1977 said:
TTwiggy said:
<snip>. I guess we all have our 'inclusivity' limits and I just feel that mine are being tested by this. The tipping point for me was seeing Germaine Greer labelled a misogynist.
Greer is just an irrelevant dinosaur now, 2nd wave feminism which held some relevance in the 1960s and 1970s ( the era of 'Mad men' etc ) is irrelevant now, so to gain the oxygen of publicity she says ever more ridiculous things... the 'real woman only' exclusionary rad fems seem to forget that a notable propertion of 'real women' are absent one or more parts of the female reporductive system or otherwise unable to carry a baby to term - so does that make these unfortunate woman 'fake ' as well ...
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