Hillsborough Inquest
Discussion
desolate said:
There is an established system to "appeal" the findings of an Inquest. All parties to the inquest have enormously expensive and highly qualified legal representatives capable of running such an appeal if they think they have grounds. Let's see if they take up their option.
There won't be an appeal.Too many admissions have now been made.
markh1973 said:
saaby93 said:
markh1973 said:
Duckenfield has admitted to lieing but you still insist he didn't.
That's what I mean -I havent insisted anythingThat aside post up what youve said youve seen as so far I've only seen something different so I cant say whether you're right or wrong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35...
It's only quoting what someone else has said.
Have you found a link with what he said, to confirm what you said?
desolate said:
NeMiSiS said:
EnthusiastOwned said:
I just heard the families are suing SYP and WYP for £19m. It's not about the monies guys, honest! 
If that is £19m for each family of the 96 then it's not enough.An American actress got more than that because someone said she was fat, and she was.
I'll enter the fray here having read the first 5 pages only....
Firstly, I was in Pen 4 at the game, so have my own story to tell of the events of that day, but not for here.
For anyone wishing to gain further insight into the event, the independent report is a good starting place ... It can be found here. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk
It's 389 pages long, but can be selectively reviewed.
As for specific comments around what I have read, here are perhaps some other insights from a personal perspective.
Yes the crush outside was very serious, definitely the worst I had ever experienced until that point. I arrived at the ground around 2.30, a little later than planned due to roadworks on the route through Manchester. I'm actually shown on the videos shown to the inquest walking to the ground with my 4 friends at 2.24. The natural funnel design with 7 turnstiles was a disaster waiting to happen, that's why the previous years had carried out crowd control along the road to manage flow.
Anyone entering, either through the turnstiles or via the open gate c would naturally have headed towards the tunnel if you didn't know the ground. Signage was poor and the tunnel was right in front of you.
The tunnel sloped downwards towards the terraces. Once into the tunnel, with a crowd behind you, there was no way back.
The barriers in the pens had been altered (1 removed, 1 partially removed), this increased the pressure created towards the front of the pens.
Not everyone who died was there early and at the front. Many were - especially pen 3 where the barrier actually collapsed. I believe some of those who died entered about the same time I did or came through Gate C. It was pot luck on where you ended up within the pen.
Firstly, I was in Pen 4 at the game, so have my own story to tell of the events of that day, but not for here.
For anyone wishing to gain further insight into the event, the independent report is a good starting place ... It can be found here. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk
It's 389 pages long, but can be selectively reviewed.
As for specific comments around what I have read, here are perhaps some other insights from a personal perspective.
Yes the crush outside was very serious, definitely the worst I had ever experienced until that point. I arrived at the ground around 2.30, a little later than planned due to roadworks on the route through Manchester. I'm actually shown on the videos shown to the inquest walking to the ground with my 4 friends at 2.24. The natural funnel design with 7 turnstiles was a disaster waiting to happen, that's why the previous years had carried out crowd control along the road to manage flow.
Anyone entering, either through the turnstiles or via the open gate c would naturally have headed towards the tunnel if you didn't know the ground. Signage was poor and the tunnel was right in front of you.
The tunnel sloped downwards towards the terraces. Once into the tunnel, with a crowd behind you, there was no way back.
The barriers in the pens had been altered (1 removed, 1 partially removed), this increased the pressure created towards the front of the pens.
Not everyone who died was there early and at the front. Many were - especially pen 3 where the barrier actually collapsed. I believe some of those who died entered about the same time I did or came through Gate C. It was pot luck on where you ended up within the pen.
desolate said:
I suppose we need to define "Factor"
again in very simple terms - the design of the ground and (other things) Were a factor leading to the incident
Simplistically - the actions of Duckenfield were a MAJOR factor
The actions of the fans weren't seen as being a "factor"
You could reduce it and say if they had all started arriving at 0900 at 1 at at time then it wouldn't have happened.
Just as you could say it it had been held at Old Trafford it wouldn't have happened.
There is an established system to "appeal" the findings of an Inquest. All parties to the inquest have enormously expensive and highly qualified legal representatives capable of running such an appeal if they think they have grounds. Let's see if they take up their option. I would say if they don't then we will know what the protagonists think of the verdict.
I see no reason for an appeal even if more fans come out of the woodwork to suggest that perhaps their excitement and keenness to get a view of the game was a factor. again in very simple terms - the design of the ground and (other things) Were a factor leading to the incident
Simplistically - the actions of Duckenfield were a MAJOR factor
The actions of the fans weren't seen as being a "factor"
You could reduce it and say if they had all started arriving at 0900 at 1 at at time then it wouldn't have happened.
Just as you could say it it had been held at Old Trafford it wouldn't have happened.
There is an established system to "appeal" the findings of an Inquest. All parties to the inquest have enormously expensive and highly qualified legal representatives capable of running such an appeal if they think they have grounds. Let's see if they take up their option. I would say if they don't then we will know what the protagonists think of the verdict.
You are right, the degree of factor is important. If the police didn't open the gates... If it was held elsewhere.. All valid. But if people didn't push relentlessly at public events... no crush... nobody dies no matter how bad the design, no matter how much plod screws up...
You see what I mean, it is quite a factor compounding on top of the bad stadium design and the bad decisions on the day.
desolate said:
Are you looking for evidential confirmation that Duckenfield lied or have I missed the point again/
Possibly - Ive been trying to uncover it for a while - see if you can give it a goWe've seen previously that Duckensfield was asked one thing replied with another and that was inferred by some to be a lie, (whereas its a typical way of avoiding the question - neither confirm nor deny).
This mail article is quite full and might show more
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3557714/Po...
If you set aside the parts where the piece says the guy has lied, there is this section
mail said:
Mr Duckenfield on his lie that the fans had gained unauthorised access into the stadium through the gate - Christina Lambert QC, counsel to the inquests: 'One final point Mr Duckenfield. It might be said that people lie in order to obscure the true facts as understood. Was that the reason why you told this lie?
Answer: 'Ma'am , I don't know, but may I just say, if we're categorising things, that was a terrible lie, in that everybody knew the truth. The fans knew the truth, that we'd opened the gates, the police officers knew we'd opened the gates.'
So did he know that he said it? Is it the QC's words? Or is he saying that he doesn't know but if he said it, it's a terrible lie?Answer: 'Ma'am , I don't know, but may I just say, if we're categorising things, that was a terrible lie, in that everybody knew the truth. The fans knew the truth, that we'd opened the gates, the police officers knew we'd opened the gates.'
Is anything clearer available? Who actually said what?
SeeFive said:
........ But if people didn't push relentlessly at public events... no crush... nobody dies no matter how bad the design, no matter how much plod screws up...
You see what I mean, it is quite a factor compounding on top of the bad stadium design and the bad decisions on the day.
The point is that people do push at public events, and they certainly did at Football matches back then, so the Police should have been ready for this, they weren't so people died.You see what I mean, it is quite a factor compounding on top of the bad stadium design and the bad decisions on the day.
You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
Edited by The Surveyor on Thursday 28th April 18:12
saaby93 said:
markh1973 said:
saaby93 said:
markh1973 said:
Duckenfield has admitted to lieing but you still insist he didn't.
That's what I mean -I havent insisted anythingThat aside post up what youve said youve seen as so far I've only seen something different so I cant say whether you're right or wrong
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-35...
It's only quoting what someone else has said.
Have you found a link with what he said, to confirm what you said?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-31...
markh1973 said:
How about this one then reporting his evidence?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-31...
yes thats what we had quite a few pages back- it doesnt detail it eitherhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-31...
In the middle of it what's written there is they had to open the gates because of the crush that was likely to happen if they didnt - the old rock in a hard place situation
Later it seems he was asked something in which he gave a reply in the heat of the moment and didnt realise how much effect the inference would have on the families etc
beeb said:
"I said something rather hurriedly, without considering the position, without thinking of the consequences and the trauma, the heartache and distress that the inference would have caused to those people who were already in a deep state of shock, who were distressed. I apologise unreservedly to the families."
Is the 'inference' whats been described elsewhere as the 'lie'?The Surveyor said:
The point is that people do push at public events, and they certainly did at Football matches back then, so the Police should have been ready for this, they weren't so people died.
You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
And you can't blame the crowd for not hearing the lessons learned if nobody educates them. If it is a factor, state it. Let people learn from the mistakes of the past.You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
Edited by The Surveyor on Thursday 28th April 18:12
Steve Campbell said:
I'll enter the fray here having read the first 5 pages only....
Firstly, I was in Pen 4 at the game, so have my own story to tell of the events of that day, but not for here.
For anyone wishing to gain further insight into the event, the independent report is a good starting place ... It can be found here. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk
It's 389 pages long, but can be selectively reviewed.
As for specific comments around what I have read, here are perhaps some other insights from a personal perspective.
Yes the crush outside was very serious, definitely the worst I had ever experienced until that point. I arrived at the ground around 2.30, a little later than planned due to roadworks on the route through Manchester. I'm actually shown on the videos shown to the inquest walking to the ground with my 4 friends at 2.24. The natural funnel design with 7 turnstiles was a disaster waiting to happen, that's why the previous years had carried out crowd control along the road to manage flow.
Anyone entering, either through the turnstiles or via the open gate c would naturally have headed towards the tunnel if you didn't know the ground. Signage was poor and the tunnel was right in front of you.
The tunnel sloped downwards towards the terraces. Once into the tunnel, with a crowd behind you, there was no way back.
The barriers in the pens had been altered (1 removed, 1 partially removed), this increased the pressure created towards the front of the pens.
Not everyone who died was there early and at the front. Many were - especially pen 3 where the barrier actually collapsed. I believe some of those who died entered about the same time I did or came through Gate C. It was pot luck on where you ended up within the pen.
Thanks for posting.Firstly, I was in Pen 4 at the game, so have my own story to tell of the events of that day, but not for here.
For anyone wishing to gain further insight into the event, the independent report is a good starting place ... It can be found here. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk
It's 389 pages long, but can be selectively reviewed.
As for specific comments around what I have read, here are perhaps some other insights from a personal perspective.
Yes the crush outside was very serious, definitely the worst I had ever experienced until that point. I arrived at the ground around 2.30, a little later than planned due to roadworks on the route through Manchester. I'm actually shown on the videos shown to the inquest walking to the ground with my 4 friends at 2.24. The natural funnel design with 7 turnstiles was a disaster waiting to happen, that's why the previous years had carried out crowd control along the road to manage flow.
Anyone entering, either through the turnstiles or via the open gate c would naturally have headed towards the tunnel if you didn't know the ground. Signage was poor and the tunnel was right in front of you.
The tunnel sloped downwards towards the terraces. Once into the tunnel, with a crowd behind you, there was no way back.
The barriers in the pens had been altered (1 removed, 1 partially removed), this increased the pressure created towards the front of the pens.
Not everyone who died was there early and at the front. Many were - especially pen 3 where the barrier actually collapsed. I believe some of those who died entered about the same time I did or came through Gate C. It was pot luck on where you ended up within the pen.
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