Why the UKIP will never work....
Discussion
BGARK said:
Manufacturing is the solution, the EU is not.
^ This.Domestic manufacturing which gets us out of the situation of importing stuff we can make for ourselves thereby removing our massive trade deficit situation and resulting debt levels.If anyone then wants to trade in that regard on the basis of trade balance enforced by quotas and tarrifs being a minimum condition and no loss of sovereignty then all well and good. G
I don't think any of you have any idea how global trade works and where those of us who are actually manufacturing in the UK sell our products. Good help us all if the UKIP lunatics ever get to run the asylum, hopefully I'll be retired by then.
XJ Flyer said:
BGARK said:
Manufacturing is the solution, the EU is not.
^ This.Domestic manufacturing which gets us out of the situation of importing stuff we can make for ourselves thereby removing our massive trade deficit situation and resulting debt levels.If anyone then wants to trade in that regard on the basis of trade balance enforced by quotas and tarrifs being a minimum condition and no loss of sovereignty then all well and good. RYH64E said:
I don't think any of you have any idea how global trade works and where those of us who are actually manufacturing in the UK sell our products. Good help us all if the UKIP lunatics ever get to run the asylum, hopefully I'll be retired by then.
Can I have some tips on how it works then?I am a manufacturer in the UK, with around 25% being exported, mainly into the EU but also USA and soon even China.
The only countries we sell to in Europe are the ones who have money to spend and can pay their bills, absolutely ZERO to do with being members of the EU. My German colleague and I have had many a conversation, we will still TRADE with each other in or out.
I want to increase my UK manufacturing operation and employ more people, I want good people (globally) to choose from, not just the dregs of Europe who walk around our industrial estate begging for work.
The EU is stifling entrepreneurship and business, run by people who have no clue how the world works, unless its for the short term of lining their own pockets!
otolith said:
Way to miss the point.
These parties which are essentially only concerned with one principle (protection of the environment, or withdrawal from the EU) should not have done what they have done and been drawn into writing up wide ranging policies as if they are ever likely to form a government as anything but a junior partner in a coalition. It just narrows their appeal, in the case of the Greens, to left wing environmentalists and in the case of UKIP to right wing eurosceptics.
I agree that campaigning outside a single issue can narrow the appeal of that kind of party, but broad appeal 'butters no parsnips'.These parties which are essentially only concerned with one principle (protection of the environment, or withdrawal from the EU) should not have done what they have done and been drawn into writing up wide ranging policies as if they are ever likely to form a government as anything but a junior partner in a coalition. It just narrows their appeal, in the case of the Greens, to left wing environmentalists and in the case of UKIP to right wing eurosceptics.
Consider the policy shifts by the Conservatives and Labour over the last few years - every one of them has been driven by fear of losing seats, not votes. Remember Tory policy around immigration before UKIP took Clacton and then Rochester & Strood? Compare it to the noises being made now.
According to Labour, it's now "not racist to want to talk about immigration" - the very words Michael Howard was attacked for some years ago. Would their position have changed without the threat to supposedly safe Labour seats in the North?
Even if UKIP never aspired to being a part of a UK Government, without winning seats and seriously threatening the power of the incumbent party and opposition they would have had no influence. To avoid being pilloried as 'single-issue' and marginalised, they have had to develop a full range of policies. If this narrows their appeal and leads to ideological impurity, that's the price that needs to be paid.
BGARK said:
Can I have some tips on how it works then?
I am a manufacturer in the UK, with around 25% being exported, mainly into the EU but also USA and soon even China.
The only countries we sell to in Europe are the ones who have money to spend and can pay their bills, absolutely ZERO to do with being members of the EU. My German colleague and I have had many a conversation, we will still TRADE with each other in or out.
I want to increase my UK manufacturing operation and employ more people, I want good people (globally) to choose from, not just the dregs of Europe who walk around our industrial estate begging for work.
The EU is stifling entrepreneurship and business, run by people who have no clue how the world works, unless its for the short term of lining their own pockets!
You want the choice of workers from around the world - presumably because the 400 million workers available in the EU aren't up to scratch. Yet at the same time on another thread you're telling someone to buy British products. I am a manufacturer in the UK, with around 25% being exported, mainly into the EU but also USA and soon even China.
The only countries we sell to in Europe are the ones who have money to spend and can pay their bills, absolutely ZERO to do with being members of the EU. My German colleague and I have had many a conversation, we will still TRADE with each other in or out.
I want to increase my UK manufacturing operation and employ more people, I want good people (globally) to choose from, not just the dregs of Europe who walk around our industrial estate begging for work.
The EU is stifling entrepreneurship and business, run by people who have no clue how the world works, unless its for the short term of lining their own pockets!
Only globalism is good enough for you but you reckon parochialism is good enough for everyone else...
King 
said:
said: You want the choice of workers from around the world - presumably because the 400 million workers available in the EU aren't up to scratch. Yet at the same time on another thread you're telling someone to buy British products.
Only globalism is good enough for you but you reckon parochialism is good enough for everyone else...
Ok so suggesting buying UK manufactured goods is bad, is that what your saying?Only globalism is good enough for you but you reckon parochialism is good enough for everyone else...
Do you even know what you are arguing for?
BGARK said:
Ok so suggesting buying UK manufactured goods is bad, is that what your saying?
Do you even know what you are arguing for?
I didn't say it was bad. I just drew attention to a double standards. Do you even know what you are arguing for?
The guy on the other thread said he wanted to buy a specific type of shoes from the US and you told him that he should buy British - despite not knowing anything about the specific product he wanted or whether it's even made in the UK. Yet you reserve the right to buy in foreign workers for yourself - you didn't even say you wanted to employ British workers whenever possible. That's a double standard.
I also assume you buy nothing but British products, even when the British product is of inferior quality?
RYH64E said:
G
I don't think any of you have any idea how global trade works and where those of us who are actually manufacturing in the UK sell our products. Good help us all if the UKIP lunatics ever get to run the asylum, hopefully I'll be retired by then.
It seems obvious how the global free market works and our trade figures and resulting national debt prove it.Basically it means the export of jobs or the import of labour to produce an over supplied labour market to provide the cheapest labour costs possible.In order to provide a profit for a few and the expense of the country as a whole.In addition to going along with the idea that Germany stays at the top of the tree in the case of the EU. XJ Flyer said:
BGARK said:
Manufacturing is the solution, the EU is not.
^ This.Domestic manufacturing which gets us out of the situation of importing stuff we can make for ourselves thereby removing our massive trade deficit situation and resulting debt levels.If anyone then wants to trade in that regard on the basis of trade balance enforced by quotas and tarrifs being a minimum condition and no loss of sovereignty then all well and good. BGARK said:
King said:
said: You want the choice of workers from around the world - presumably because the 400 million workers available in the EU aren't up to scratch. Yet at the same time on another thread you're telling someone to buy British products.
Only globalism is good enough for you but you reckon parochialism is good enough for everyone else...
Ok so suggesting buying UK manufactured goods is bad, is that what your saying?Only globalism is good enough for you but you reckon parochialism is good enough for everyone else...
Do you even know what you are arguing for?
However the idea of calling for people to buy British while then filling the jobs produced with immigrant labour from wherever in the world is a case of hypocricy and defeats the object of trying to move the economy forward on the basis of the Fordist closed loop feedback model.
On that note exactly what skills is it that aren't available here and exactly what ones are only available globally in terms of manufacturing.
While it is the above contradiction which seems to be the main flaw in UKIP's stated economic policy.Which seems to be one of leaving the frying pan of our trade deficit and cheap imported labour issue of the EU.While staying with the fire of our trade deficit and cheap imported labour issues in the global free market economy.None of which is consistent with the type of Fordist economic model for our manufacturing sector that we need.
King said:
said:I also assume you buy nothing but British products, even when the British product is of inferior quality?
Edited by XJ Flyer on Wednesday 3rd December 00:46
We have an enormous market on our doorstep, we have free and unrestricted access to that market, cheap overseas competitors are put at a disadvantage due to customs procedures and import duties, and most of our fellow Europeans have labour practices that are archaic. Yet instead of making the most of the opportunity that being part of that protectionist market offers many want to leave and compete directly with the likes of India and China in the world market, personally I'm much happier competing with the likes of France and Greece in the EU market.
The EU is the biggest export market for many of our manufacturers, about 50% of my output went to other EU states this year, anything that jeopardises EU trade will have a devastating affect on our prosperity and employment figures. All for what? To save a few quid on membership costs and appease the crowd?
The EU is the biggest export market for many of our manufacturers, about 50% of my output went to other EU states this year, anything that jeopardises EU trade will have a devastating affect on our prosperity and employment figures. All for what? To save a few quid on membership costs and appease the crowd?
King said:
said: I didn't say it was bad. I just drew attention to a double standards.
The guy on the other thread said he wanted to buy a specific type of shoes from the US and you told him that he should buy British - despite not knowing anything about the specific product he wanted or whether it's even made in the UK. Yet you reserve the right to buy in foreign workers for yourself - you didn't even say you wanted to employ British workers whenever possible. That's a double standard.
I also assume you buy nothing but British products, even when the British product is of inferior quality?
Double standards, pah you know nothing about me other than a sentence on the internet!The guy on the other thread said he wanted to buy a specific type of shoes from the US and you told him that he should buy British - despite not knowing anything about the specific product he wanted or whether it's even made in the UK. Yet you reserve the right to buy in foreign workers for yourself - you didn't even say you wanted to employ British workers whenever possible. That's a double standard.
I also assume you buy nothing but British products, even when the British product is of inferior quality?
The buy British thing on the other thread was actually tongue in cheek, I was taking the mick primarily because he was bleeting on about high prices, of course you will pay more if you are trying to import something unusual from overseas if they don't have a base or process locally.
Buy in foreign workers, again what are you on about. I don't want to choose foreign workers, I would rather take on British people. My point is about choice.
XJ Flyer said:
On that note exactly what skills is it that aren't available here.
The traditional hands on skills, the ability to multi-task between all forms of manufacturing machinery, practically not theoretically.Try and find someone without grey hair in the UK that can do these jobs.
There is a 20 year skill gap that has been devastated by recent governments, STEM colleges are slowly opening back up but it will take years to recover if at all possible.
BGARK said:
How many Indian/Chinese cars do you see on the roads of Europe?
How many European cars do you see on the roads of India/China.
Why do you think the European carmakers have manufacturing plants in China? Probably for the same reason that Japanese car manufacturers have manufacturing plants in the EU, the question is whether they would want to have manufacturing plants in the UK if we could no longer provide free access to the EU market.How many European cars do you see on the roads of India/China.
Import duties on non-EU manufactured cars are 10%, if we leave the EU without securing free access to the EU market anyone in the rest of Europe wanting to buy a UK made car will be hit with a 10% surcharge. If we want to negotiate a free trade agreement with the UK it will mean signing up to the same kind of agreement that Switzerland has, which will mean that the bold promises UKIP make won't be deliverable. So free trade in return for open borders, or fortress UK, what's it to be?
The Chinese car market is interesting, I usually visit China once or twice a year and the most of my senior contacts over there drive BMW or Audi cars, the rest drive makes I've never heard of. It's a very status conscious society, and the very small percentage of wealthy people can afford to pay for whatever European branded products they want. I see more Lamborghinis and Ferraris in Shanghai than anywhere in the UK outside of central London, but the percentage of people who can afford them is very, very small.
Esseesse said:
RYH64E said:
All for what? To save a few quid on membership costs and appease the crowd?
I'd say the main reason was to be able to preserve our civil liberties, maintain control of our country and democracy.Life is good at the moment, business is booming, trade is easy, making plenty of money, my civil liberties are fine, I'm happy with the way things are.
XJ Flyer said:
Ironically China isn't exactly known for producing better quality manufactured goods than us.Yet no surprise China is one of the places where we have the largest trade deficit.As for Germany if we couldn't make products of at least as good,if not better,quality as Germany then we would now either be part of Hitler's 1000 year Reich unless the Russians then decided to just take the lot instead.
Our success in WW2 was not down to the fact that we made better products than the Germans. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff