Hillsborough Inquest
Discussion
iSore said:
EnthusiastOwned said:
I just heard the families are suing SYP and WYP for £19m. It's not about the monies guys, honest! 
So much for closure eh! I did have a chuckle as I heard it on the radio. Suing the busies for compo - she would have guessed?
kwit? Steve Campbell said:
I'll enter the fray here having read the first 5 pages only....
Firstly, I was in Pen 4 at the game, so have my own story to tell of the events of that day, but not for here.
For anyone wishing to gain further insight into the event, the independent report is a good starting place ... It can be found here. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk
It's 389 pages long, but can be selectively reviewed.
As for specific comments around what I have read, here are perhaps some other insights from a personal perspective.
Yes the crush outside was very serious, definitely the worst I had ever experienced until that point. I arrived at the ground around 2.30, a little later than planned due to roadworks on the route through Manchester. I'm actually shown on the videos shown to the inquest walking to the ground with my 4 friends at 2.24. The natural funnel design with 7 turnstiles was a disaster waiting to happen, that's why the previous years had carried out crowd control along the road to manage flow.
Anyone entering, either through the turnstiles or via the open gate c would naturally have headed towards the tunnel if you didn't know the ground. Signage was poor and the tunnel was right in front of you.
The tunnel sloped downwards towards the terraces. Once into the tunnel, with a crowd behind you, there was no way back.
The barriers in the pens had been altered (1 removed, 1 partially removed), this increased the pressure created towards the front of the pens.
Not everyone who died was there early and at the front. Many were - especially pen 3 where the barrier actually collapsed. I believe some of those who died entered about the same time I did or came through Gate C. It was pot luck on where you ended up within the pen.
Interesting post Steve. You must have bad dreams sometimes.Firstly, I was in Pen 4 at the game, so have my own story to tell of the events of that day, but not for here.
For anyone wishing to gain further insight into the event, the independent report is a good starting place ... It can be found here. http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk
It's 389 pages long, but can be selectively reviewed.
As for specific comments around what I have read, here are perhaps some other insights from a personal perspective.
Yes the crush outside was very serious, definitely the worst I had ever experienced until that point. I arrived at the ground around 2.30, a little later than planned due to roadworks on the route through Manchester. I'm actually shown on the videos shown to the inquest walking to the ground with my 4 friends at 2.24. The natural funnel design with 7 turnstiles was a disaster waiting to happen, that's why the previous years had carried out crowd control along the road to manage flow.
Anyone entering, either through the turnstiles or via the open gate c would naturally have headed towards the tunnel if you didn't know the ground. Signage was poor and the tunnel was right in front of you.
The tunnel sloped downwards towards the terraces. Once into the tunnel, with a crowd behind you, there was no way back.
The barriers in the pens had been altered (1 removed, 1 partially removed), this increased the pressure created towards the front of the pens.
Not everyone who died was there early and at the front. Many were - especially pen 3 where the barrier actually collapsed. I believe some of those who died entered about the same time I did or came through Gate C. It was pot luck on where you ended up within the pen.
Can I ask, forgetting for a minute everything that happened subsequently once inside the ground... You mentioned the crush outside the ground by the turnstiles. Forgetting the subsequent disaster if you can, and all the other factors, do you think the crush you described required the police/stewards that were at that location to take immediate action to alleviate it, and the action that they took in opening the gate, in isolation from what later followed, was justifiable, or do you think that at that moment they were making an in reasonable/unsafe decision? Could they have done something different, that was obvious at that moment? Please try to answer, if you can, without hindsight influence.
My query on this is for the reasoning of opportioning blame more to the infrastructure of the situation. If he design was a disaster waiting to happen then this is where the accident could have been avoided.
Thanks.
The Surveyor said:
The point is that people do push at public events, and they certainly did at Football matches back then, so the Police should have been ready for this, they weren't so people died.
You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
The "role" of the "crowd" is an interesting one. The commentary on "pushing" from the back brings up images of unruly people deliberately "shoving". I can't talk for those at the back, I wasn't one of them...as to what they did.....but anyone who is interested should google around crowd dynamics, especially the phenomena of turbulence. Once a crowd reaches a certain density, small and relatively insignificant movements propagate high pressure waves through the crowd, resulting In significant movements of the crowd that are not the consequences of significant "shoving". If you watch the videos of the pens, you can see this. The problem with this phenomena in this circumstance was that the pressure wave had no where to go, and being on a sloped terrace, drove the crowd forward. As the crowd surged due to the dynamics, further people filled the space (whether they wanted to or not). I know this happened 3 or 4 times where I was located. I believe one of the commentaries talks of the pressure being like a constricting snake. This is the best description I have heard for those at the "ends" of those pressure waves where there was nowhere to go and the pressure just increased as the turbulence wave occurred.You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
Edited by The Surveyor on Thursday 28th April 18:12
PS I'm from Manchester, and have been a Liverpool fan all my life.
As for the crush outside, and taking it at the time, it was unbelievable. To give you an idea, at the time, I was a 22 year old, fit and healthy 6"1' man. I got trapped "between" the turnstiles against a wall. There was nothing I could do on my own. About 4 other blokes managed to ease the crush by bracing themselves against the wall which eased the pressure. I described entering the turnstile like a cork out of a bottle. The news at the time described fans "climbing" to get into the ground, in fact, they climbed to get out of the crush. There was at least 1 policeman on the roof helping them. The police had lost control by this time, with no mechanism of communicating with the crowd. Police horses got trapped within the crowd, some reports talked of the horses being lifted. I saw quite a few people ducking "between" the legs of the horses to prevent getting crushed against them !
As for opening the gate, at that given moment I personally think it was likely the only decision to prevent injury or death outside. At that point I was standing in front of the tunnel looking for my friends. When the door opened, I thought....oh, they've opened the gate to release the pressure outside, I better get into the ground ....that's when I turned to enter the tunnel.
Edited by Steve Campbell on Thursday 28th April 19:22
Steve Campbell said:
The "role" of the "crowd" is an interesting one. The commentary on "pushing" from the back brings up images of unruly people deliberately "shoving". I can't talk for those at the back, I wasn't one of them...as to what they did.....but anyone who is interested should google around crowd dynamics, especially the phenomena of turbulence. Once a crowd reaches a certain density, small and relatively insignificant movements propagate high pressure waves through the crowd, resulting In significant movements of the crowd that are not the consequences of significant "shoving". If you watch the videos of the pens, you can see this. The problem with this phenomena in this circumstance was that the pressure wave had no where to go, and being on a sloped terrace, drove the crowd forward. As the crowd surged due to the dynamics, further people filled the space (whether they wanted to or not). I know this happened 3 or 4 times where I was located. I believe one of the commentaries talks of the pressure being like a constricting snake. This is the best description I have heard for those at the "ends" of those pressure waves where there was nowhere to go and the pressure just increased as the turbulence wave occurred.
PS I'm from Manchester, and have been a Liverpool fan all my life.
As for the crush outside, and taking it at the time, it was unbelievable. To give you an idea, at the time, I was a 22 year old, fit and healthy 6"1' man. I got trapped "between" the turnstiles against a wall. There was nothing I could do on my own. About 4 other blokes managed to ease the crush by bracing themselves against the wall which eased the pressure. I described entering the turnstile like a cork out of a bottle. The news at the time described fans "climbing" to get into the ground, in fact, they climbed to get out of the crush. There was at least 1 policeman on the roof helping them. The police had lost control by this time, with no mechanism of communicating with the crowd. Police horses got trapped within the crowd, some reports talked of the horses being lifted. I saw quite a few people ducking "between" the legs of the horses to prevent getting crushed against them !
As for opening the gate, at that given moment I personally think it was likely the only decision to prevent injury or death outside. At that point I was standing in front of the tunnel looking for my friends. When the door opened, I thought....oh, they've opened the gate to release the pressure outside, I better get into the ground ....that's when I turned to enter the tunnel.
Wow. Sobering. Steve, have you ever been asked to give evidence? PS I'm from Manchester, and have been a Liverpool fan all my life.
As for the crush outside, and taking it at the time, it was unbelievable. To give you an idea, at the time, I was a 22 year old, fit and healthy 6"1' man. I got trapped "between" the turnstiles against a wall. There was nothing I could do on my own. About 4 other blokes managed to ease the crush by bracing themselves against the wall which eased the pressure. I described entering the turnstile like a cork out of a bottle. The news at the time described fans "climbing" to get into the ground, in fact, they climbed to get out of the crush. There was at least 1 policeman on the roof helping them. The police had lost control by this time, with no mechanism of communicating with the crowd. Police horses got trapped within the crowd, some reports talked of the horses being lifted. I saw quite a few people ducking "between" the legs of the horses to prevent getting crushed against them !
As for opening the gate, at that given moment I personally think it was likely the only decision to prevent injury or death outside. At that point I was standing in front of the tunnel looking for my friends. When the door opened, I thought....oh, they've opened the gate to release the pressure outside, I better get into the ground ....that's when I turned to enter the tunnel.
Edited by Steve Campbell on Thursday 28th April 19:22
Glad you are still here.
iSore said:
Steve Campbell said:
PS I'm from Manchester, and have been a Liverpool fan all my life.
Sorry, that's simply not possible.:-)
iSore said:
EnthusiastOwned said:
I just heard the families are suing SYP and WYP for £19m. It's not about the monies guys, honest!
So much for closure eh! I did have a chuckle as I heard it on the radio. Suing the busies for compo - she would have guessed?Who is the "she" you mention?
Let me ask you something, if a member of your family were injured or killed due to someone's unlawful
negligence, god forbid, would you seek compensation?
SilverSpur said:
Steve is the same age as me. He comes from a time that in his formative years, 6-9, Liverpool were the best team in the world. That's why he supports them, as did all my peer group friends. Didn't matter so much where you lived.
I was jesting Sir! One of the more emotionally unstable posters seemed to suggest that all 96 families were all from L'pool. Yes, I gave my evidence a few weeks after the event. Police came to the house and I had to give my account, I expect it's somewhere in the thousands of bits of paper the inquest had to review (unless it miraculously disappeared like some of the evidence !)
I'm from Manchester, but with a dad from Liverpool :-)
I'm from Manchester, but with a dad from Liverpool :-)
Steve Campbell said:
Yes, I gave my evidence a few weeks after the event. Police came to the house and I had to give my account, I expect it's somewhere in the thousands of bits of paper the inquest had to review (unless it miraculously disappeared like some of the evidence !)
I'm from Manchester, but with a dad from Liverpool :-)
Aaah, another Honourary Scouser! Welcome to the club!I'm from Manchester, but with a dad from Liverpool :-)
EnthusiastOwned said:
I just heard the families are suing SYP and WYP for £19m. It's not about the monies guys, honest!
Crap reporting or crap hearing.£19.4 million is what South Yorkshire Police spent on legal fees on behalf of the force and individual police officers, funded by a special grant from the Home Office.
The civil claim is for an unspecified amount to be determined by the court. I suspect any damages awarded will be nominal given the targets.
Steve Campbell said:
...The police had lost control by this time, with no mechanism of communicating with the crowd...
Steve, thanks for your post, I'd guess it wasn't an easy thing for you to do.The section I've quoted, from someone that was actually there, is very telling.
Maybe way the inquest said the fan were in no way to blame?
ninja-lewis said:
The civil claim is for an unspecified amount to be determined by the court. I suspect any damages awarded will be nominal given the targets.
Thanks for clarifying the nonsense reported in the press.Can I ask why you suspect any damages awarded by the court will be nominal ?
skeggysteve said:
Steve Campbell said:
...The police had lost control by this time, with no mechanism of communicating with the crowd...
Steve, thanks for your post, I'd guess it wasn't an easy thing for you to do.The section I've quoted, from someone that was actually there, is very telling.
Maybe way the inquest said the fan were in no way to blame?
If the gates hadn't of been opened, less hurt would have been caused, but some would still have been injured and killed I suspect, given Steve's first hand witness recollections.
Steve Campbell said:
The Surveyor said:
The point is that people do push at public events, and they certainly did at Football matches back then, so the Police should have been ready for this, they weren't so people died.
You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
The "role" of the "crowd" is an interesting one. The commentary on "pushing" from the back brings up images of unruly people deliberately "shoving". I can't talk for those at the back, I wasn't one of them...as to what they did.....but anyone who is interested should google around crowd dynamics, especially the phenomena of turbulence. Once a crowd reaches a certain density, small and relatively insignificant movements propagate high pressure waves through the crowd, resulting In significant movements of the crowd that are not the consequences of significant "shoving". If you watch the videos of the pens, you can see this. The problem with this phenomena in this circumstance was that the pressure wave had no where to go, and being on a sloped terrace, drove the crowd forward. As the crowd surged due to the dynamics, further people filled the space (whether they wanted to or not). I know this happened 3 or 4 times where I was located. I believe one of the commentaries talks of the pressure being like a constricting snake. This is the best description I have heard for those at the "ends" of those pressure waves where there was nowhere to go and the pressure just increased as the turbulence wave occurred.You can't blame a crowd for behaving like a crowd.
Edited by The Surveyor on Thursday 28th April 18:12
PS I'm from Manchester, and have been a Liverpool fan all my life.
As for the crush outside, and taking it at the time, it was unbelievable. To give you an idea, at the time, I was a 22 year old, fit and healthy 6"1' man. I got trapped "between" the turnstiles against a wall. There was nothing I could do on my own. About 4 other blokes managed to ease the crush by bracing themselves against the wall which eased the pressure. I described entering the turnstile like a cork out of a bottle. The news at the time described fans "climbing" to get into the ground, in fact, they climbed to get out of the crush. There was at least 1 policeman on the roof helping them. The police had lost control by this time, with no mechanism of communicating with the crowd. Police horses got trapped within the crowd, some reports talked of the horses being lifted. I saw quite a few people ducking "between" the legs of the horses to prevent getting crushed against them !
As for opening the gate, at that given moment I personally think it was likely the only decision to prevent injury or death outside. At that point I was standing in front of the tunnel looking for my friends. When the door opened, I thought....oh, they've opened the gate to release the pressure outside, I better get into the ground ....that's when I turned to enter the tunnel.
Edited by Steve Campbell on Thursday 28th April 19:22
I was at the QPR-West Ham FA Cup game just over a year before Hillsborough where the away end I was in overcrowded for various reasons. Thankfully in that case QPR didn't have us fenced in and we were able to spill onto the pitch to relieve the pressure but it was exactly as Steve described up to the point of relief. On that day the police were equally clueless. It could easily have had the same outcome.
I very much doubt whether any of the police in or outside Hillsborough understood the complex mechanics of what was going on. That should have been taken away from them beforehand in design, planning, monitoring and on-the-day process execution. In my view the cuplability is shared (given all the evidenced near misses and comparable experience beforehand) between SYP, SWFC and the FA. The ground was not fit for the purpose it was engaged in and plenty of people knew that beforehand. Each had their own reasons for not remedying that situation. The SYP are, however further culpable for what happened afterwards.
SilverSpur said:
If the gates hadn't of been opened, less hurt would have been caused, but some would still have been injured and killed I suspect, given Steve's first hand witness recollections.
The way I have understood is that it isn't the opening of the gate that was the issue in itself - it was opening the gate then failing to close the gate to tunnel directly opposite.Closing the gate would have forced the crowd down a different route.
Please correct me if I recall incorrectly, but this is what had been done previously.
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