Climate Change - the big debate

[zakelwe]

Jasandjules said:

Lost_BMW said:

BBC Radio 4 have just run an ad for a programme about the Copenhagen summit, to run at 1.30pm this Sunday, but no doubt it will be on iPlayer to offer more of their legendary balance.

Well, one can live in hope.

The bottom line however is simple enough, this winter is already f***ng freezing. Two harsh winters on the trot rather undermine the Global Warming s**e... The public might put up with the lies for a while (and have done for too long) BUT the weather itself will soon show them, and then they will challenge....

LOL. What a load of baloney.

Andy

[turbobloke]

zakelwe said:

Jasandjules said:

Lost_BMW said:

BBC Radio 4 have just run an ad for a programme about the Copenhagen summit, to run at 1.30pm this Sunday, but no doubt it will be on iPlayer to offer more of their legendary balance.

Well, one can live in hope.

The bottom line however is simple enough, this winter is already f***ng freezing. Two harsh winters on the trot rather undermine the Global Warming s**e... The public might put up with the lies for a while (and have done for too long) BUT the weather itself will soon show them, and then they will challenge....

LOL. What a load of baloney.

[zakelwe]

turbobloke said:

zakelwe said:

Diderot said:

The moral is, in the longer term, the trend is down (the cold PDO then AMO) and in the shorter term, it's down, fast.

What time scales are your long and short here?

Global temps are currently going down, but the trend is still up within the last 10 years or so.

Andy

The only reason the trend is overall up 2001-2010 is the 2009 strong El Nino, a period of natural warming, your omission of that key point is purely accidental right?

There hasn't been a negative value since 1995

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH...

so it can't be 2009, unless 2009 has a time machine.

It may go negative next year, it is a pretty big La Nina this year.

Andy

[BliarOut]

zakelwe said:

turbobloke said:

zakelwe said:

Diderot said:

The moral is, in the longer term, the trend is down (the cold PDO then AMO) and in the shorter term, it's down, fast.

What time scales are your long and short here?

Global temps are currently going down, but the trend is still up within the last 10 years or so.

Andy

The only reason the trend is overall up 2001-2010 is the 2009 strong El Nino, a period of natural warming, your omission of that key point is purely accidental right?

There hasn't been a negative value since 1995

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH...

so it can't be 2009, unless 2009 has a time machine.

It may go negative next year, it is a pretty big La Nina this year.

Andy

Is that the sound of an excuse being lined up that I hear?

[Mojocvh]

BBC going "potty" over the latest weather forecast, wait for it, it's winter and it's going to snow..........................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11827592


PS

Did you know it actually snowed in the Scottish mountains this month!!Wow

[zakelwe]

BliarOut said:

zakelwe said:

turbobloke said:

zakelwe said:

Diderot said:

The moral is, in the longer term, the trend is down (the cold PDO then AMO) and in the shorter term, it's down, fast.

What time scales are your long and short here?

Global temps are currently going down, but the trend is still up within the last 10 years or so.

Andy

The only reason the trend is overall up 2001-2010 is the 2009 strong El Nino, a period of natural warming, your omission of that key point is purely accidental right?

There hasn't been a negative value since 1995

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH...

so it can't be 2009, unless 2009 has a time machine.

It may go negative next year, it is a pretty big La Nina this year.

Andy

Is that the sound of an excuse being lined up that I hear?

What am I making excuses for ? There is no denying natural cycles exist.

Andy

[BliarOut]

zakelwe said:

BliarOut said:

zakelwe said:

turbobloke said:

zakelwe said:

Diderot said:

The moral is, in the longer term, the trend is down (the cold PDO then AMO) and in the shorter term, it's down, fast.

What time scales are your long and short here?

Global temps are currently going down, but the trend is still up within the last 10 years or so.

Andy

The only reason the trend is overall up 2001-2010 is the 2009 strong El Nino, a period of natural warming, your omission of that key point is purely accidental right?

There hasn't been a negative value since 1995

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH...

so it can't be 2009, unless 2009 has a time machine.

It may go negative next year, it is a pretty big La Nina this year.

Andy

Is that the sound of an excuse being lined up that I hear?

What am I making excuses for ? There is no denying natural cycles exist.

Andy

Bullseye... The planet naturally warms and cools. If, and it's a bloody big if, CO2 is going to cause it to massively warm up and kill us all why is it getting colder?

Just a thought.

[nelly1]

Mojocvh said:

BBC going "potty" over the latest weather forecast, wait for it, it's winter and it's going to snow..........................

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11827592


PS

Did you know it actually snowed in the Scottish mountains this month!!Wow

But... Snow could become a thing of the past in Scotland...

[turbobloke]

From the past to the future - though calling this stuff methane hydrate is pushing things a bit without mentioning clathrate anywhere. This via GWPF sources:


Gas hydrates are said to contain more energy than all other fossil fuels combined, and are much cleaner than oil and coal. Global estimates "range from merely jaw-dropping to the truly staggering," according to the U.S. Department of Energy. Canada is believed to have enough hydrates along its coasts to meet the country's energy needs for a couple of hundred years.
Margaret Munro, The Gazette, 15 November 2010

Unlike technologies used in the faster-than-expected development of shale gas in the US, the technology for extracting usable fuel from Japan's methane hydrates is still in the developmental stage. If Japan can lower the methane hydrates output costs to the point of offshore production platforms, it could be made competitive against LNG by bringing it ashore via pipelines to its nearest coasts.
Takeo Kumagai, Platts, 22 November 2010

Buried below the tundra of China’s Qinghai-Tibet Plateau is a type of frozen natural gas containing methane and ice crystals that could supply energy to China for 90 years. China discovered the large reserve of methane hydrate last September, and last week the Qinghai Province announced that it plans to allow researchers and energy companies to tap the energy source.
Xinhua News Agency, 6 March 2010

[jshell]

turbobloke said:

From the past to the future - though calling this stuff methane hydrate is pushing things a bit without mentioning clathrate anywhere. This via GWPF sources:


Gas hydrates are said to contain more energy than all other fossil fuels combined, and are much cleaner than oil and coal. Global estimates "range from merely jaw-dropping to the truly staggering," according to the U.S. Department of Energy. Canada is believed to have enough hydrates along its coasts to meet the country's energy needs for a couple of hundred years.
Margaret Munro, The Gazette, 15 November 2010

Unlike technologies used in the faster-than-expected development of shale gas in the US, the technology for extracting usable fuel from Japan's methane hydrates is still in the developmental stage. If Japan can lower the methane hydrates output costs to the point of offshore production platforms, it could be made competitive against LNG by bringing it ashore via pipelines to its nearest coasts.
Takeo Kumagai, Platts, 22 November 2010

Buried below the tundra of China’s Qinghai-Tibet Plateau is a type of frozen natural gas containing methane and ice crystals that could supply energy to China for 90 years. China discovered the large reserve of methane hydrate last September, and last week the Qinghai Province announced that it plans to allow researchers and energy companies to tap the energy source.
Xinhua News Agency, 6 March 2010

I mentioned hydrates very early in this thread. There is a staggering amount of the stuff, clean burning and more than we ever found of oil. BUT, it's a nightmare to get out of the ground. Imagine drilling for coal at 10,000ft below surface - totally impractical. The cost of production outweighs the revenue by huge margins.

[LongQ]

jshell said:

turbobloke said:

From the past to the future - though calling this stuff methane hydrate is pushing things a bit without mentioning clathrate anywhere. This via GWPF sources:


Gas hydrates are said to contain more energy than all other fossil fuels combined, and are much cleaner than oil and coal. Global estimates "range from merely jaw-dropping to the truly staggering," according to the U.S. Department of Energy. Canada is believed to have enough hydrates along its coasts to meet the country's energy needs for a couple of hundred years.
Margaret Munro, The Gazette, 15 November 2010

Unlike technologies used in the faster-than-expected development of shale gas in the US, the technology for extracting usable fuel from Japan's methane hydrates is still in the developmental stage. If Japan can lower the methane hydrates output costs to the point of offshore production platforms, it could be made competitive against LNG by bringing it ashore via pipelines to its nearest coasts.
Takeo Kumagai, Platts, 22 November 2010

Buried below the tundra of China’s Qinghai-Tibet Plateau is a type of frozen natural gas containing methane and ice crystals that could supply energy to China for 90 years. China discovered the large reserve of methane hydrate last September, and last week the Qinghai Province announced that it plans to allow researchers and energy companies to tap the energy source.
Xinhua News Agency, 6 March 2010

I mentioned hydrates very early in this thread. There is a staggering amount of the stuff, clean burning and more than we ever found of oil. BUT, it's a nightmare to get out of the ground. Imagine drilling for coal at 10,000ft below surface - totally impractical. The cost of production outweighs the revenue by huge margins.

Not if the energy production companies have their way with pricing.

Of course it would mean a shift spending power to be able to afford such energy AND the suppression of any cheaper competing products. So, to keep warm and eat hot food what part of ones present budget are people prepared to re-allocate?

My vote would be for reducing taxes but, in the main, there's not much flexibility available there.

The cost of property could be considered excessive and is a large proportion of most people's overheads whether renting or buying. Making it cheaper woould either cause a property price crash or put the banks out of business. (Actually in many ways both could be a long term benefit based on current practises).

Food and drink? We could eat and drink less I suppose.

Holidays - an entirely unnecessary luxury if push comes to shove.

General Travel? How much does you car cost per annum as a proportion of your budget. (I appreciate there may be many PH'ers who won't understand or relate to such a question.)

Any other suggestions?

[turbobloke]

A key aspect of energy pricing already in the pipeline, no pun intended, is the £300 to £500 additional cost on each household's outgoings which are purely to pay for pointless greenwash - most of it will be via energy bills and taxes. All pointless and based on junkscience & the ensuing GIGO.

[zakelwe]

Guam said:

Quite we have had thirty years of doomsday warnings and other bks, yet here we are with colder winters and no way to grow my olive groves in Lincs!!

To be honest it's not 30 years in the public eye, acid rain and then the ozone hole were more the evil bad guy then.

Andy

[zakelwe]

BliarOut said:

zakelwe said:

BliarOut said:

zakelwe said:

turbobloke said:

zakelwe said:

Diderot said:

The moral is, in the longer term, the trend is down (the cold PDO then AMO) and in the shorter term, it's down, fast.

What time scales are your long and short here?

Global temps are currently going down, but the trend is still up within the last 10 years or so.

Andy

The only reason the trend is overall up 2001-2010 is the 2009 strong El Nino, a period of natural warming, your omission of that key point is purely accidental right?

There hasn't been a negative value since 1995

http://www.drroyspencer.com/wp-content/uploads/UAH...

so it can't be 2009, unless 2009 has a time machine.

It may go negative next year, it is a pretty big La Nina this year.

Andy

Is that the sound of an excuse being lined up that I hear?

What am I making excuses for ? There is no denying natural cycles exist.

Andy

Bullseye... The planet naturally warms and cools. If, and it's a bloody big if, CO2 is going to cause it to massively warm up and kill us all why is it getting colder?

Just a thought.

Yes but we had these cooling and warming cycles before 1995 but looking at that graph I posted since then things seem to have had a change.

This is an interesting post on WUWT

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/11/23/joe-bdi...

Joe bdi thinks 5.5x10^6 km2 minimum ice extent in 2011 and will get rapidly bigger from then on due to the pacific and atlantic cycles. He also thinks Russia and Alaska will have very cold winter this year. Also Europe to some extent.

I voted 4.75, so less than this year, due to it being warm up there at present and slower ice growth over winter. Also last summer was quite cool/cloudy in the main months of melt. If it is more normal next year I think that will more than offset any extra multi year ice

Andy

[turbobloke]

zakelwe said:

turbobloke said:

The only reason the trend is overall up 2001-2010 is the 2009 strong El Nino, a period of natural warming, your omission of that key point is purely accidental right?

There hasn't been a negative value since 1995...so it can't be 2009, unless 2009 has a time machine.

Wrong approach and it doesn't address what I said. The downward trend from 2007 would have continued downward, due to the solar downturn, without the El Nino so we would very likely have had what you call 'a negative value'. What else was there to prevent it? Not carbon dioxide for sure. Total solar activity dipped discontinuously 2005 October and there is a 4 to 8 year lag to climate.

zakelwe said:

ice extent

There is no causality to humans.

Why not post the price of apple pie at least we may be influencing that.

Edited by turbobloke on Wednesday 24th November 17:33

[turbobloke]

zakelwe said:

Yes but we had these cooling and warming cycles before 1995 but looking at that graph I posted since then things seem to have had a change.

Aye. Even the Mail knows what it is since Phil Jones told them and everybody else - since 1995 there has been no gloopal wombling, though it's not strictly a change to reality since there never has been any, it's just a change to the propaganda.

Climategate U-turn as scientist at centre of row admits: There has been no global warming since 1995

Which one of you guys is off message?

[BliarOut]

This Global Warming is a right bd. I've got to go out and fit my knobblies this evening

[turbobloke]

Guam said:

I guess unlike Whales its not high profile enough...........oh wait maybe its about cash instead

Thought for a minute there you were referring to the Prince of Whales.

http://www.thisisdorset.co.uk/news/Wind-farms-brin...

Noddy and Big Ears - banking on windfarms.

[zakelwe]

turbobloke said:

Not carbon dioxide for sure. Total solar activity dipped discontinuously 2002 October and there is a 4 to 8 year lag to climate.

Can you show a scientific link to the claim of a 4 to 8 year lag somewhere? Considering the short timescale it seems very imprecise.

I don't even know what "dipped discontinuously 2002 October " means, it seems like gobbledegook just thrown at the thread.

I hope this is not going to be like your silly claim of huge loss of ice mass loss in the 1800's when nobody even measured it in those days, or even knew where they were going up there because it had not been mapped.

Andy

[odyssey2200]

zakelwe said:

Can you show a scientific link to the claim of....

Andy

just as soon as you show one that shows evidence of MMGW.